Anyone here have radiant in their driveway (aka snow melt )

[maxspeed96ct]

Just wondering if anyone has it or knows alittle about how to control it.

I understand radiant and the systems very well, Im not fimilair with snow melt systems .

How do you control it, only thing I can think of is some kind of timer that you can manually adjust and turn on when there is inclimate weather. Obviously Id only want to run it if it was snowing out not by temp.

Reason I ask is I have a small driveway, And ill need to add another half when I build my 2 car in august.
Im going to get a price on a concrette driveway to compare, and if its reasonable Im going to drop in some radiant tubbing and heat exchanger . Since my garage will have radiant aswell .

 

[HoosierBuddy]

I know a very little. I was checking out one a couple of weeks ago at a new building where they were using it to keep the sidewalks free of ice. This was at a business, and I think the way they justfiy the cost is: If it prevents 1 broken hip that we get sued over, it will pay for itself.

I think that's the only way you can justify it. It would be expensive to operate. I guess if you figure it could save you from having a heart attack shoveling snow...then maybe it makes sense?

The system I looked at had return lines buried about 6 inches deep in the landscaping. It was all glycol out under the sidewalk....so it uses some sort of heat exchanger.

Phil

 

[dirttracker18]

I do not have it yet but I intend on running my shop system into the driveway once I get it done in concrete.

I am going to set mine up on a switched valve so that I can turn it on once I plow the driveway or if we get an ice storm. That would be the only time I would turn it on and not necessarily after every time I plow. Just when it gets built up.

If have seen this type of system in action and it works great and pretty fast. In the winter it is dry enough that as it melts, it evaporates.

I would not use it as an alternative to shoveling or plowing as that would get expensive fast.

 

[Jackfre]

Not in the driveway, but I did radiant in my sidewalks back in MA. Lot of elevation change, steps, etc. I ran it as a manual system which worked out fine for my wife and me. I'd suggest you go to Rehau.com and look at their snow melt design manual. Plenty to digest. I figure that it cost me about $50 per yr to run, but when we had a 3' storm and I'd look out the window in the morning and the snow would be deep and the sidewalk dry...well, worth all of it. If I missed the timing and the system ended up chasing the snow/ice, I'd leave it on and it would catch up. Due to the lay-out of the sidewalk, again, the absence of ice was the biggest deal for us.

Snow melt is an ideal application for solar. Low temp give sky high collector efficiencies. When in the solar business I used to use 1.68 gal/sq ft of collector.

Also, people will frequently not do the whole driveway but just the skirt in front of the garage. That too is an option. You decide how long that skirt is.

For system controllers check out Tekmar.

 

[Shop Specialties]

My radiant guy likes using Tekmar controls with a sensor in the concrete for people that want it automatic.

 

[maxspeed96ct]

Sounds good guys , Im still doing research trying to decide if I want to run glycol in my garage slab or not .



If I don't run glycol in the garage slab I will definatly install a seprate heat exchanger with glycol in the driveway part if I do go ahead with the project.

Going to look further into manual timers and switches, I dont think im ready to get to pay the $$ for a fancy automatic systems.

Id like to find some type of timer that I can set to run on/off for 15 minute intervals for lets say a 12hr period. That way I can set it at the begining of the storm, somewhat save on not having to run the system through the entire storm. And it wil lalso prevent the slab from over heating.
any input on that ?

 

[6768rogues]

I was facility director at a public school that had two ice melt systems that circulated glycol. They work well and do not consume a lot of energy, because the surface is kept just above freezing and our area gets cold, but not excessively cold for long periods. You can get a controller that will idle the system when it is not snowing, allowing for warming faster when snow starts. There are also snow sensors available. The school used a sophisticated computer controlled system (tied into our overall energy management system) so outdoor temps were monitored, along with surface temp, boiler water temp, etc.

 

[Milton Shaw]

40 years ago I knew a guy that bought a show home in a subdivision. He had outrageous electric bills and had electricians and the utility company and they didn't find anything wrong. This was in south Georgia and this went on for about two years till one day in the winter it snowed. They only thing not covered with 2" snow was his driveway and sidewalks. Snow was hitting the concrete and hissing like on a hot stove. He had electric heaters in the concrete on for over two years and didn't know it. They do work but are expensive if you had to run them all the time.

 

[maxspeed96ct]

I was facility director at a public school that had two ice melt systems that circulated glycol. They work well and do not consume a lot of energy, because the surface is kept just above freezing and our area gets cold, but not excessively cold for long periods. You can get a controller that will idle the system when it is not snowing, allowing for warming faster when snow starts. There are also snow sensors available. The school used a sophisticated computer controlled system (tied into our overall energy management system) so outdoor temps were monitored, along with surface temp, boiler water temp, etc.

Nice, ya it looks like heat timer makes alot of stuff. I think id stick to some type of manual system initially , but the more I look into it , im not sure if the costs are worth it....

40 years ago I knew a guy that bought a show home in a subdivision. He had outrageous electric bills and had electricians and the utility company and they didn't find anything wrong. This was in south Georgia and this went on for about two years till one day in the winter it snowed. They only thing not covered with 2" snow was his driveway and sidewalks. Snow was hitting the concrete and hissing like on a hot stove. He had electric heaters in the concrete on for over two years and didn't know it. They do work but are expensive if you had to run them all the time.

Thats a epic fail , I bet his dog loved laying out in the driveway lol

 

[kert]

40 years ago I knew a guy that bought a show home in a subdivision. He had outrageous electric bills and had electricians and the utility company and they didn't find anything wrong. This was in south Georgia and this went on for about two years till one day in the winter it snowed. They only thing not covered with 2" snow was his driveway and sidewalks. Snow was hitting the concrete and hissing like on a hot stove. He had electric heaters in the concrete on for over two years and didn't know it. They do work but are expensive if you had to run them all the time.

I'm calling BS on this one. Maybe I'm too methodical, but if that happened to me, I'd shut every breaker off in the box and start turning each one on one at a time and watching the meter to see where I had an unexpected draw. I'd also think you'd notice a high amp double-pole breaker that didn't seem to go to anything. The homeowner might not have, but I'd expect the pros to notice.

 

[thammel]

Yes, I installed electric driveway heat in my last house. The website was deltatherm an I used their MI cable. This was a pita job. It was not cheap either but the driveway aimed straight at the house and the house was at the bottom of the hill. It was expensive to operate but I expected to use it only a few days to few weeks of the year. I installed it under the replacement asphalt driveway. I ran a lot of conduit, had an extra 200 amps service brought to the house and had timers and water and temperature sensors to control the system. It worked quite well! This way I didn't have to install a boiler, etc.

Tom

 

[maxspeed96ct]

I'm calling BS on this one. Maybe I'm too methodical, but if that happened to me, I'd shut every breaker off in the box and start turning each one on one at a time and watching the meter to see where I had an unexpected draw. I'd also think you'd notice a high amp double-pole breaker that didn't seem to go to anything. The homeowner might not have, but I'd expect the pros to notice.

lol well the story might be true by the time word got around it got turned from 1 week to 2 months to 2years. Thats at least what happens when something bad happens at my job, everyone stretches it and adds just alittle bit ! lol

 

[HoosierBuddy]

Yes, I installed electric driveway heat in my last house. The website was deltatherm an I used their MI cable. This was a pita job. It was not cheap either but the driveway aimed straight at the house and the house was at the bottom of the hill. It was expensive to operate but I expected to use it only a few days to few weeks of the year. I installed it under the replacement asphalt driveway. I ran a lot of conduit, had an extra 200 amps service brought to the house and had timers and water and temperature sensors to control the system. It worked quite well! This way I didn't have to install a boiler, etc.

Tom

The thing I'd warn anyone on this is: Electric resistance heat is the most expensive way to heat anything. 3, 4, even 5 times more expensive than natural gas (dth vs kwh), and the ratio is growing.

Phil

 

[rhino123]

Actually in this scenario, electric resistance heat is not more expensive to use, gas or any hydronic system is more expensive - see this calculator to compare.
http://www.tycothermal.com/design-t...Snow-Melting-and-De-icing-Cost-Estimator.aspx

There are many systems on the market from low voltage to line voltage, what really matters with cost of operation is if it is designed to ASHRAE standards or not. Many system are over designed such as the Delta Therm system mentioned before. Certain regions require certain heat some more some less and unless you use those standards you are either not providing enough heat or you are wasting energy. Activation is key with any snow melt system, using a temp/moisture sensor so the system activates fast and eliminating catch up mode is key to efficiency with any system. The main difference towards operating cost with hydronic and electric is: electric systems are either on or off while hydronic systems idle idle idle at low capacity until a storm which = waste of energy$$$$.

I know heatizon designs strictly to ASHRAE standards, not sure about the othters.

 

[Stuart in MN]

The Tyco website referenced above has some good information on sizing and calculations for driveway and sidewalk heating. They also have a lot of info on heat tracing for pipes and rain gutters.

 

[bd8134]

I was considering when we were having the driveway replaced. Decided not to in the end.
Here is a thread with some info..
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88452

 

[idoine in toronto]

We have, or had an electric radiant heat in our 40 year old down slope drive. I say had because the city repaved our street and removed & replaced 5' of our drive nearest the street and in the process cut all the radiant lines and was unable to repair the system.

Many others in the neighborhood have radiant snow melt in their drives or walkways.

 

[maxspeed96ct]

We have, or had an electric radiant heat in our 40 year old down slope drive. I say had because the city repaved our street and removed & replaced 5' of our drive nearest the street and in the process cut all the radiant lines and was unable to repair the system.

Many others in the neighborhood have radiant snow melt in their drives or walkways.

wow thats a bummer !

 

[maxspeed96ct]

I was considering when we were having the driveway replaced. Decided not to in the end.
Here is a thread with some info..
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88452

nice house, nice driveway to !

Mines about 1/4 the lenght of yours. But im still on the fence on what I want to do. Going to wait and see how the garage build goes first ....

 

[IowaMercMan]

Interesting stuff - with these systems, I'm wondering how the concrete holds up to the changes in temperature. Nobody has mentioned increased tendency to crack/heave, and some of these "thawing systems" have apparently been installed a long time. Still, I'm curious if there's any special preparation *under* the concrete, or specific concrete mix, or.....?

 

[maxspeed96ct]

Interesting stuff - with these systems, I'm wondering how the concrete holds up to the changes in temperature. Nobody has mentioned increased tendency to crack/heave, and some of these "thawing systems" have apparently been installed a long time. Still, I'm curious if there's any special preparation *under* the concrete, or specific concrete mix, or.....?

Im wondering the same thing, it seems like no one realy knows for sure. I've read some mixed opinions on it.

For now the project to the back burner untill everthing else is done. But I dont think I'll be doing it unless the concrete guy gives me a price that really would make it worth it.

 

[rhino123]

Bummer on the city cutting those heating elements! I do know low voltage systems Low Voltage Snow Melt Cables can be easily repaired with a simple splice and located with a radio trace signal if they do break. Jumpers should also be used when going through joints so really only one cable passes the control joint.
As far as preparing the concrete, check out page 2-6 of this installation manual Snow Melting System Concrete Preparation regarding "a few concrete suggestions" when installing a snow melting system embedded in concrete

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

We design and install driveway snow melting systems all over North America. The operating cost is much less than the typical snow plow service (roughly 25cent/sq.ft. per year).

The proper mixture of "propylene glycol" is a must for a hydronic snow melting system. DO NOT USE automotive antifreeze for this or any other application save automotive.

Nobody wants to use anti-freeze for any hydronic system as it costs more to pump and more to heat up (poor heat transfer) so, yes a plate heat exchanger would be in order.

As for controls. You may use a fully automatic control and even leave it on "idle" if you like, but this type of control strategy is usually reserved for Class III snow melting systems such as emergency drives and helicopter pads.

About half of our snow melting designs (and a little more than half of our local installations) use fully automatic controls coming on only when an embedded sensor sees snow or moisture in freezing temperatures. The other half employ an simple light switch or wind-timer as suggested. The cost difference is in the thousands but if you must have a dry walk or driveway and you aren't always home to turn it on...

My walk is heating below the flag stone and my new driveway will go in this summer with PEX and a condensing boiler, just like my lucky customers.

http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/snowmelt.html

 

[maxspeed96ct]

We design and install driveway snow melting systems all over North America. The operating cost is much less than the typical snow plow service (roughly 25cent/sq.ft. per year).

The proper mixture of "propylene glycol" is a must for a hydronic snow melting system. DO NOT USE automotive antifreeze for this or any other application save automotive.

Nobody wants to use anti-freeze for any hydronic system as it costs more to pump and more to heat up (poor heat transfer) so, yes a plate heat exchanger would be in order.

As for controls. You may use a fully automatic control and even leave it on "idle" if you like, but this type of control strategy is usually reserved for Class III snow melting systems such as emergency drives and helicopter pads.

About half of our snow melting designs (and a little more than half of our local installations) use fully automatic controls coming on only when an embedded sensor sees snow or moisture in freezing temperatures. The other half employ an simple light switch or wind-timer as suggested. The cost difference is in the thousands but if you must have a dry walk or driveway and you aren't always home to turn it on...

My walk is heating below the flag stone and my new driveway will go in this summer with PEX and a condensing boiler, just like my lucky customers.

http://www.badgerboilerservice.com/snowmelt.html

great info thanks, I think If I do decide to go through with it I will do a simple manualy controlled setup. And just keep an eye on the weather

I feel like my entire project is at such a standstill as I wait for my varience approval . But the snow melt idea sounds nice , just cant decide if its worth it.

 

[BD1]

Just remember to tell the guy that is gonna saw cut your drive for the new pet electric fence. We had a call AFTER THE FACT ! Talk about $$$$$$. This was a old copper tube install in BLACKTOP ! Never saw that before.

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

There are no detrimental affects in adding snow melting to a driveway or walk. The specification for concrete or asphalt will normally not change. In either case the substrate is one of the most important factors.

As for snow melting, most of our residential designs include rigid insulation. Some are reinforced with wire or rod.

If you think about a driveway in the hot sun all day - say 150°F - then the afternoon shower - maybe in the 50's or 60's - and consider that most snow occurs in and around the freezing mark, there is little difference in thermal shock since the typical residential snow melting system has a design water temperature of 120°F.

Experienced design help is a must since every climate needs a different output... and I don't care where the help comes from as long as you get some ;-).

 

[ScaldedDog]

Experienced design help is a must since every climate needs a different output... and I don't care where the help comes from as long as you get some ;-).

This is true. I put in a snowmelt system when the garage was built a few years ago, but made one critical mistake: I insulated the driveway with the same 2" foam I used in the garage. As a result, I get zero assistance from the heat of the earth, so any snow that falls on that section has to be melted by burning dead dinosaurs. If I had it to do agian, I'd use some of that near worthless rollout insulation under the driveway, and the foam under the garage floor.

Mark

 

[BadgerBoilerMN]

If you have solar gain, you may opt for a little color in the drive, but the net affect of no or low insulation is more money spent in heating ground and snow melting slab. The year round ground temperature is usually found below the frost line. So your scenario would only work in the shoulder months in most snow prone areas, thus the design help.