ok.. tell me if I am nuts?

Ryf · Jun 26, 2012

if a gentleman give you a quote on a concrete job, and you agree to the quote, his performance is less than stellar and takes 4 days longer to complete than expected (no showed 4 of 7 days) was told it was a two day job, he didn't show up any days before 10:30 and he always left before 4, he was paid 1/3 deposit at the end of first day and was told by me paid in full was at completion. his claimed reason was truck trouble.

he wanted paid in full today, I said no, as the concrete isn't cut yet, he says I should pay because there is concrete, I paid for a completed job, not 90%, so I agree to pay the second third, and paid in full on complete. he wanted paid in full today.. I paid for the concrete and gravel myself, so he is not out the money for that. I think I am being fair because he has shown he can be a bit unreliable on appointments, he thinks I am disrespecting him because he has completed the majority of the work.

who is right?

930dreamer · Jun 26, 2012

Stand your ground and subtract for the days/hours not worked. Once he's paid chances of him returning are slim.

zuk123 · Jun 26, 2012

If you give him the rest of the money, you will never see him again. That could be a good thing when this all gets ugly.

Full payment upon satisfactory completion. <--that is the only way it should work.

zuk

BTW, sounds like the guy is undercapitalized, perhaps underskilled too. Be REALLY sure he has actually done all the work you agreed to.

BigV · Jun 26, 2012

If you pay now you are asking to get screwed. Never pay until the work is finished and it is what you agreed to up front.

zuk123 · Jun 26, 2012

This is also typical of guys who bid too low. They bid 80% of what the job SHOULD have cost, and then only do 80% of the work agreed to. It's a good reason to be suspicious of the low bid (unless you can see a good reason why it is lower than the others.) (Not having an office, bank account, insurance, workman's comp, etc is NOT a good reason.)

zuk

Ryf · Jun 26, 2012

zuk123 said:
If you give him the rest of the money, you will never see him again. That could be a good thing when this all gets ugly.

Full payment upon satisfactory completion. <--that is the only way it should work.

zuk

BTW, sounds like the guy is undercapitalized, perhaps underskilled too. Be REALLY sure he has actually done all the work you agreed to.

I have taken a week off to watch this thing get done, when I couldn't be here my father in law was, but that is a good headsup ty. I dont generally trust contractors, because if they are good they understand, if they are bad they deserve it. he has always remained in contact, and the work was done at a good pace and acceptably when they were here. I wondered if he has 2-3 jobs going and is playing round robin to keep us all from firing him, but the pad looks great and since I ordered the concrete and watched him pour it I know I got a 4000 psi pad from a concrete vendor I trust, and I know he didn't take any gravel in his truck lol, and I watched them tamp it out, believe me, I know not to trust anyone.

I thank you guys for re-affirming my lack of faith in the human condition. lol

ForceFed70 · Jun 26, 2012

No way I would pay the final 1/3 until the job was complete to my satisfaction and the cleanup was done.

mdbeck1 · Jun 26, 2012

Major warning signs: When the concrete company won't bring the concrete out unless YOU pay for it it's time to get a different contractor. That means they don't trust the guy to pay them.

...oh and the drive looked great. The garage floor has some major lumps in it and a crack running from the front to the back. They poured it all on the same day and when 5:00 PM came around they just walked off. They had just started leveling the garage.

ForceFed70 · Jun 26, 2012

mdbeck1 said:
Major warning signs: When the concrete company won't bring the concrete out unless YOU pay for it it's time to get a different contractor. That means they don't trust the guy to pay them.

Yes. But, there are pro's to doing this way.

- You know the concrete being used/ordered is the correct mix, etc.
- You avoid risk of a materials lein against your shop if contractor does not pay
- You can avoid some taxes. If contractor orders and pays taxes on the concrete, then you pay the contractor (and taxes again) you basically pay tax twice on the materials.

mdbeck1 · Jun 26, 2012

ForceFed70 said:
Yes. But, there are pro's to doing this way.

- You know the concrete being used/ordered is the correct mix, etc.
- You avoid risk of a materials lein against your shop if contractor does not pay
- You can avoid some taxes. If contractor orders and pays taxes on the concrete, then you pay the contractor (and taxes again) you basically pay tax twice on the materials.

I hadn't thought about the tax angle. If the contractor were to tell me that I could save a few bucks by ordering the concrete for them I might go that route.

....but normally if I hire someone I expect them to front the materials. If they won't they had better have a good reason.

Thorold · Jun 26, 2012

Can we assume this was a cash deal without contract ( which is how mine was done ) ?

I'd be awfully tempted to do the cutting my self and spend the remaining third on beer ...

-Brent- · Jun 26, 2012

After being burned by a contactor, I will pay when the job is done and meets the terms of what's contracted and not a minute sooner. It's a horrible task to try to chase down someone that doesn't care and has no motivation (aside from money) to do a proper job.

Ryf · Jun 26, 2012

mdbeck1 said:
Major warning signs: When the concrete company won't bring the concrete out unless YOU pay for it it's time to get a different contractor. That means they don't trust the guy to pay them.

...oh and the drive looked great. The garage floor has some major lumps in it and a crack running from the front to the back. They poured it all on the same day and when 5:00 PM came around they just walked off. They had just started leveling the garage.

he was going to order it, but I had heard I would have better control of the deal if I knew the amounts spent and the quality and knew if was what I ordered or not. he wanted to use company X, I wanted to use company Y who I know and trust for other dealings, so I told him I would handle those parts. supplies were always available before he was there to use them.

ForceFed70 said:
Yes. But, there are pro's to doing this way.

- You know the concrete being used/ordered is the correct mix, etc.
- You avoid risk of a materials lein against your shop if contractor does not pay
- You can avoid some taxes. If contractor orders and pays taxes on the concrete, then you pay the contractor (and taxes again) you basically pay tax twice on the materials.

this sounds bad, but I just wanted to know it was right, I've dealt with people in other parts of the industry, I know the games, order 2500 and sell it as 4000, and water it down even more so its garbage etc. I just wanted to have on paper from them what it was.

Thorold said:
Can we assume this was a cash deal without contract ( which is how mine was done ) ?

I'd be awfully tempted to do the cutting my self and spend the remaining third on beer ...

it was a cash deal yes, I work on a fairly tight budget, using vacation time to babysit him was cheaper than finding a contractor to oversee it who could very well be as crooked as the concrete guy. I made sure it was done according to what I know to be right. he was recommended and other than the truck breaking down I am not unhappy with the work. we got heated enough in our discussion about the money my good friend and neighbor came over to make sure it stayed cordial lol.

I am tempted to do just that, but if he shows up tomorrow I will let him do the work and pay him his wage and let it go.

Thorold · Jun 26, 2012

Don't get me wrong - i am not a pr%^k. I just think it should be cut before it starts to crack.

Indeed if he shows up in the next few days that would be great but if not, well - his loss.

camarotoolman · Jun 27, 2012

Report him on Angies listand CL, worn other local people.

sooperdave · Jun 27, 2012

930dreamer said:
Once he's paid chances of him returning are slim.

^yep

Az Scooter · Jun 27, 2012

10% down, and the remainder on completion. Sometimes 50% when there are large material front costs. But in this instance, 10% is the most I would do for just labor.

ADaughen · Jun 27, 2012

930dreamer said:
Stand your ground and subtract for the days/hours not worked. Once he's paid chances of him returning are slim.

Heck, my BIL's garage isn't done after one year and the contractor hasn't been back.

The contractor tried to collect a few months after he stopped showing up to work and my BIL was like "where's this, and this and this that we agreed to?" He HAS a contract and blueprints.

It was a "simple" pole barn garage and concrete pour, we were doing all the wiring/interior as his funds became available. This contractor couldn't even get the flashing and soffit installed correctly or install the roof vents as required.

BIL was going to do it himself, but his wife "encouraged" him to hire out.

bluesman2a · Jun 27, 2012

Az Scooter said:
10% down, and the remainder on completion. Sometimes 50% when there are large material front costs. But in this instance, 10% is the most I would do for just labor.

I won't even go with this any more.
I will pay materials WHEN they show up on my property (or the supplier directly, for delivery to ME).

Work out a draw schedule for larger jobs, X% when A,B,C is done. Y% when D,E,F are done. Also include dates and generous completion estimates, with stipulations as to what happens if not met (if not done with ** days, this agreement is null and void). Protects you and him. Both parties sign it and have their own copies. The line I always use on them is: "Look you are at my HOME, I'm not going anywhere. I don't know you and have never done business with you. I'm not looking to stiff you, and I will pay for all work on delivery, but until we develop a working relationship and you can prove delivery, this is how it has to be. It's a fair approach that protects the contractor AND the home owner."

If they won't work to that, then you don't want them.

Last but not least: Have a LIEN WAVER in hand before you pay him, make him sign it, saying that he has been paid in full and material has been paid in full. This way nobody can come back later and lien your property over this job.

-Brent- · Jun 27, 2012

bluesman2a said:
I won't even go with this any more.
I will pay materials WHEN they show up on my property (or the supplier directly, for delivery to ME).

Work out a draw schedule for larger jobs, X% when A,B,C is done. Y% when D,E,F are done. Also include dates and generous completion estimates, with stipulations as to what happens if not met (if not done with ** days, this agreement is null and void). Protects you and him. Both parties sign it and have their own copies. The line I always use on them is: "Look you are at my HOME, I'm not going anywhere. I don't know you and have never done business with you. I'm not looking to stiff you, and I will pay for all work on delivery, but until we develop a working relationship and you can prove delivery, this is how it has to be. It's a fair approach that protects the contractor AND the home owner."

If they won't work to that, then you don't want them.

Last but not least: Have a LIEN WAVER in hand before you pay him, make him sign it, saying that he has been paid in full and material has been paid in full. This way nobody can come back later and lien your property over this job.

Very well said.

Angelfire · Jun 27, 2012

I wouldn't pay until the job is done. That being said, it's too late to reap the full benefits of cutting control joints now. Those should be cut within a few hours of final finish. At this point, I'm going to assume your concrete stopped hydrating some time ago and they aren't going to help all that much....they can't hurt but he should have cut them in on the same day as the pour.

Another advantage to paying for materials etc yourself is to avoid having liens placed against you by the material suppliers when the contractors don't pay them!

Dan in Pasadena · Jun 27, 2012

Full pay when job is fully done, period, no exceptions. And tell him you'll respect him in the morning!

Ryf · Jun 27, 2012

he came back today, earlier than usual, and did his job quickly and cleaned up per our agreement. I am not sure what you mean by hydrating, I have watered the concrete 3 times since he poured it, it was poured at noon around 85 degrees, it also got pretty cool here last night (low 60's) so I am pretty sure its late but not too late. the pad is only 20x22, so its questionable if I even needed one, he recommended it, so I agreed so i cant see the harm of it as of right now lol.

he showed up cut it and got paid, its a win win, thanks for the venting session, no I wouldn't hire him again.

Angelfire · Jun 27, 2012

I may have misunderstood your original post. I was under the impression he poured this slab some time ago (ie. a few days ago) but still hadn't cut the control joints. Typically, control joints should be cut within 12 hours of starting the pour and ideally within an hour or two of final finishing.

Hydrating is the process which occurs when the concrete is mixed and is hardening. It's essentially the wetting of all the cement in the mix which chemically creates cement gel which forms the hydrated cement paste. If proper hydration doesn't occur (usually over the course of several days), then there is water left in the concrete that will eventually leave and leave voids. To avoid this, curing is needed with a water cure being pretty effective and simple to do. If you poured yesterday and have kept the concrete looking dark green the whole time, then the cure is going well. Keep that slab from drying out for 7 days and you'll increase your compressive strength significantly. A 3000psi mix can easily make 4-5000psi with a proper cure. It also sounds like your temps are good as it's a pain to keep a slab wet or even flooded with water when it just evaporates off in 15 mins! If your slab has dried out at any time, it's done...you can't restart the hydration process by putting water on it again.

Here's a link to some of the basics of concrete.

http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_faqs.asp

Glad to see he showed up and did what he was supposed to do. Now get ready for the framing!

akdiesel · Jun 27, 2012

This has to be the contractor I had dealings with last year.
I paid a portion just like you did, the only difference was at the end he wanted more than the quote. Agreements on the phone started quickly. He, himself, never stepped one foot on the property. He had his employee do the estimate for removal and installation. Not our fault the guessed it was a 4" pad and not an 8" pad (we had no idea either).
They did not start until after two weeks due jail time for for his employee (waiting for him to be released). A different sub came and did excavation while the main employee was in jail.
I had to play GC. Had to order a porta potty, pay for the concrete and pump truck all out of my pocket, as well as catering to them (I like to help those busting their **** on location. This seams to get better work results).
Last phone call to the guy was him going to contact a lawyer as well as some threatening words from him. Told him that would be great I will get my lawyer as well. Stood the ground and an apology was given back to me and no extra costs.
Sorry for the long story but simply stand your ground. You have a contract that will stand in court for either side of the party.
Good luck

Ryf · Jun 27, 2012

Angelfire said:
I may have misunderstood your original post. I was under the impression he poured this slab some time ago (ie. a few days ago) but still hadn't cut the control joints. Typically, control joints should be cut within 12 hours of starting the pour and ideally within an hour or two of final finishing.

Hydrating is the process which occurs when the concrete is mixed and is hardening. It's essentially the wetting of all the cement in the mix which chemically creates cement gel which forms the hydrated cement paste. If proper hydration doesn't occur (usually over the course of several days), then there is water left in the concrete that will eventually leave and leave voids. To avoid this, curing is needed with a water cure being pretty effective and simple to do. If you poured yesterday and have kept the concrete looking dark green the whole time, then the cure is going well. Keep that slab from drying out for 7 days and you'll increase your compressive strength significantly. A 3000psi mix can easily make 4-5000psi with a proper cure. It also sounds like your temps are good as it's a pain to keep a slab wet or even flooded with water when it just evaporates off in 15 mins! If your slab has dried out at any time, it's done...you can't restart the hydration process by putting water on it again.

Here's a link to some of the basics of concrete.

http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_faqs.asp

Glad to see he showed up and did what he was supposed to do. Now get ready for the framing!

well I am glad you taught me that and sad, I wont be able to keep it like this after tommorow afternoon, have to do that work thing lol. so adding water will have to stop. since I dont really want to come home to a split hose or worse. doing things when I am home and can wander out a few times a day is cool, but I like to button it up when I am gone so if I dont make it back right away no harm. two days is better than none I hope.

akdiesel said:
This has to be the contractor I had dealings with last year.
I paid a portion just like you did, the only difference was at the end he wanted more than the quote. Agreements on the phone started quickly. He, himself, never stepped one foot on the property. He had his employee do the estimate for removal and installation. Not our fault the guessed it was a 4" pad and not an 8" pad (we had no idea either).
They did not start until after two weeks due jail time for for his employee (waiting for him to be released). A different sub came and did excavation while the main employee was in jail.
I had to play GC. Had to order a porta potty, pay for the concrete and pump truck all out of my pocket, as well as catering to them (I like to help those busting their **** on location. This seams to get better work results).
Last phone call to the guy was him going to contact a lawyer as well as some threatening words from him. Told him that would be great I will get my lawyer as well. Stood the ground and an apology was given back to me and no extra costs.
Sorry for the long story but simply stand your ground. You have a contract that will stand in court for either side of the party.
Good luck

lol, they must be cousins, no porta potty here though lol. he did ask for more, I told him he was out of his mind and told him I had lost money from my pocket waiting on him and if we are just going to adjust on the fly he deserved alot less. this happened when he asked for payment in full before job end, the conversation turned into a excited discussion loud enough to wake my son on the other side of the house (its not a big house) and get my neighbor concerned enough to walk over. I might not want to tackle a concrete floor but I am not the kind of person who takes bullying, yelling and hassling, in fact it pretty much makes me go into f_u mode, where I will no longer be reasonable and go into making **** worse just to let you feel how I feel lol. when he started yelling I raised my voice to his level and told him I would mail him a bleeping check in o, how about 4 days from whenever he finishes, since he doesn't respect my time, why the bleep should I give his any consideration.. it really turned south at that point, but the neighbor showing up kind of put the brakes on his shouting...somewhere in there he accepted I wasn't going to be bullied and accepted my terms..

as i said though, I like his work, he did a good job and delivered a good product in the end, i really didn't want to dump on him this bad, because I AM getting what I wanted, just about a business week late with a bit of head butting. in any transactions things get complicated, but I dont think either of us were innocent in the argument, he started being a **** because he didn't get his way and I was already fed up with him and returned fire, could I have handled it better? maybe, but I didn't really feel like it at that point lol. I probably should have fired him and taken the financial loss on the day he came back, but its hard to part with money and I had hope we'd get it done if I just let him get to it. part of me really feels bad for posting this part, as I really just wanted to know if I was wrong on how to deal with contractors, but it also feels good to vent about what a pain in the *** this experience was lol.

Bill Crowell · Jun 27, 2012

"Last but not least: Have a LIEN WAVER in hand before you pay him, make him sign it, saying that he has been paid in full and material has been paid in full. This way nobody can come back later and lien your property over this job."

Since the lien runs in favor of the materialman, not the contractor, the contractor has no legal capacity to waive a materialman's lien.

Angelfire · Jun 27, 2012

Ryf said:
well I am glad you taught me that and sad, I wont be able to keep it like this after tommorow afternoon, have to do that work thing lol. so adding water will have to stop. since I dont really want to come home to a split hose or worse. doing things when I am home and can wander out a few times a day is cool, but I like to button it up when I am gone so if I dont make it back right away no harm. two days is better than none I hope.

One thing you could do, and is quite frequently done, is give it a good soaking then drape visqueen over it. The one negative to doing this is it will leave markings on the concrete where the plastic was sitting. Another option would be to drape it in burlap or similar and soak that down. Oh, and there is waterproof paper available that acts similar to the plastic but doesn't leave markings. If you're after a full cure, these are a few methods to keep the water cure going.
Cheers,
cc

6768rogues · Jun 27, 2012

Don't pay until it is done. If he was not on the job as promised and did not call, he is irresponsible and disrespectful of his customers. Even if the work was stellar, I would not like his behavior. If it drags on, send a certified letter with a drop dead date for completion or you will have another contractor finish it and back charge him.

ok.. tell me if I am nuts?

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