ok.. tell me if I am nuts?

[Ryf]

if a gentleman give you a quote on a concrete job, and you agree to the quote, his performance is less than stellar and takes 4 days longer to complete than expected (no showed 4 of 7 days) was told it was a two day job, he didn't show up any days before 10:30 and he always left before 4, he was paid 1/3 deposit at the end of first day and was told by me paid in full was at completion. his claimed reason was truck trouble.

he wanted paid in full today, I said no, as the concrete isn't cut yet, he says I should pay because there is concrete, I paid for a completed job, not 90%, so I agree to pay the second third, and paid in full on complete. he wanted paid in full today.. I paid for the concrete and gravel myself, so he is not out the money for that. I think I am being fair because he has shown he can be a bit unreliable on appointments, he thinks I am disrespecting him because he has completed the majority of the work.

who is right?

[930dreamer]

Stand your ground and subtract for the days/hours not worked. Once he's paid chances of him returning are slim.

[zuk123]

If you give him the rest of the money, you will never see him again. That could be a good thing when this all gets ugly.

Full payment upon satisfactory completion. <--that is the only way it should work.

zuk

BTW, sounds like the guy is undercapitalized, perhaps underskilled too. Be REALLY sure he has actually done all the work you agreed to.

[BigV]

If you pay now you are asking to get screwed. Never pay until the work is finished and it is what you agreed to up front.

[zuk123]

This is also typical of guys who bid too low. They bid 80% of what the job SHOULD have cost, and then only do 80% of the work agreed to. It's a good reason to be suspicious of the low bid (unless you can see a good reason why it is lower than the others.) (Not having an office, bank account, insurance, workman's comp, etc is NOT a good reason.)

zuk

[Ryf]

Originally Posted by zuk123

If you give him the rest of the money, you will never see him again. That could be a good thing when this all gets ugly.

Full payment upon satisfactory completion. <--that is the only way it should work.

zuk

BTW, sounds like the guy is undercapitalized, perhaps underskilled too. Be REALLY sure he has actually done all the work you agreed to.

I have taken a week off to watch this thing get done, when I couldn't be here my father in law was, but that is a good headsup ty. I dont generally trust contractors, because if they are good they understand, if they are bad they deserve it. he has always remained in contact, and the work was done at a good pace and acceptably when they were here. I wondered if he has 2-3 jobs going and is playing round robin to keep us all from firing him, but the pad looks great and since I ordered the concrete and watched him pour it I know I got a 4000 psi pad from a concrete vendor I trust, and I know he didn't take any gravel in his truck lol, and I watched them tamp it out, believe me, I know not to trust anyone.

I thank you guys for re-affirming my lack of faith in the human condition. lol

[ForceFed70]

No way I would pay the final 1/3 until the job was complete to my satisfaction and the cleanup was done.

[mdbeck1]

Major warning signs: When the concrete company won't bring the concrete out unless YOU pay for it it's time to get a different contractor. That means they don't trust the guy to pay them.

...oh and the drive looked great. The garage floor has some major lumps in it and a crack running from the front to the back. They poured it all on the same day and when 5:00 PM came around they just walked off. They had just started leveling the garage.

[ForceFed70]

Originally Posted by mdbeck1

Major warning signs: When the concrete company won't bring the concrete out unless YOU pay for it it's time to get a different contractor. That means they don't trust the guy to pay them.

Yes. But, there are pro's to doing this way.

- You know the concrete being used/ordered is the correct mix, etc.
- You avoid risk of a materials lein against your shop if contractor does not pay
- You can avoid some taxes. If contractor orders and pays taxes on the concrete, then you pay the contractor (and taxes again) you basically pay tax twice on the materials.

[mdbeck1]

Originally Posted by ForceFed70

Yes. But, there are pro's to doing this way.

- You know the concrete being used/ordered is the correct mix, etc.
- You avoid risk of a materials lein against your shop if contractor does not pay
- You can avoid some taxes. If contractor orders and pays taxes on the concrete, then you pay the contractor (and taxes again) you basically pay tax twice on the materials.

I hadn't thought about the tax angle. If the contractor were to tell me that I could save a few bucks by ordering the concrete for them I might go that route.

....but normally if I hire someone I expect them to front the materials. If they won't they had better have a good reason.

[Thorold]

Can we assume this was a cash deal without contract ( which is how mine was done ) ?

I'd be awfully tempted to do the cutting my self and spend the remaining third on beer ...

[-Brent-]

After being burned by a contactor, I will pay when the job is done and meets the terms of what's contracted and not a minute sooner. It's a horrible task to try to chase down someone that doesn't care and has no motivation (aside from money) to do a proper job.

[Ryf]

Originally Posted by mdbeck1

Major warning signs: When the concrete company won't bring the concrete out unless YOU pay for it it's time to get a different contractor. That means they don't trust the guy to pay them.

...oh and the drive looked great. The garage floor has some major lumps in it and a crack running from the front to the back. They poured it all on the same day and when 5:00 PM came around they just walked off. They had just started leveling the garage.

he was going to order it, but I had heard I would have better control of the deal if I knew the amounts spent and the quality and knew if was what I ordered or not. he wanted to use company X, I wanted to use company Y who I know and trust for other dealings, so I told him I would handle those parts. supplies were always available before he was there to use them.

Originally Posted by ForceFed70

Yes. But, there are pro's to doing this way.

- You know the concrete being used/ordered is the correct mix, etc.
- You avoid risk of a materials lein against your shop if contractor does not pay
- You can avoid some taxes. If contractor orders and pays taxes on the concrete, then you pay the contractor (and taxes again) you basically pay tax twice on the materials.

this sounds bad, but I just wanted to know it was right, I've dealt with people in other parts of the industry, I know the games, order 2500 and sell it as 4000, and water it down even more so its garbage etc. I just wanted to have on paper from them what it was.

Originally Posted by Thorold

Can we assume this was a cash deal without contract ( which is how mine was done ) ?

I'd be awfully tempted to do the cutting my self and spend the remaining third on beer ...

it was a cash deal yes, I work on a fairly tight budget, using vacation time to babysit him was cheaper than finding a contractor to oversee it who could very well be as crooked as the concrete guy. I made sure it was done according to what I know to be right. he was recommended and other than the truck breaking down I am not unhappy with the work. we got heated enough in our discussion about the money my good friend and neighbor came over to make sure it stayed cordial lol.

I am tempted to do just that, but if he shows up tomorrow I will let him do the work and pay him his wage and let it go.

[Thorold]

Don't get me wrong - i am not a pr%^k. I just think it should be cut before it starts to crack.

Indeed if he shows up in the next few days that would be great but if not, well - his loss.

[camarotoolman]

Report him on Angies listand CL, worn other local people.

[sooperdave]

Originally Posted by 930dreamer

Once he's paid chances of him returning are slim.

^yep

[Az Scooter]

10% down, and the remainder on completion. Sometimes 50% when there are large material front costs. But in this instance, 10% is the most I would do for just labor.

[ADaughen]

Originally Posted by 930dreamer

Stand your ground and subtract for the days/hours not worked. Once he's paid chances of him returning are slim.

Heck, my BIL's garage isn't done after one year and the contractor hasn't been back.

The contractor tried to collect a few months after he stopped showing up to work and my BIL was like "where's this, and this and this that we agreed to?" He HAS a contract and blueprints.

It was a "simple" pole barn garage and concrete pour, we were doing all the wiring/interior as his funds became available. This contractor couldn't even get the flashing and soffit installed correctly or install the roof vents as required.


BIL was going to do it himself, but his wife "encouraged" him to hire out.

[bluesman2a]

Originally Posted by Az Scooter

10% down, and the remainder on completion. Sometimes 50% when there are large material front costs. But in this instance, 10% is the most I would do for just labor.

I won't even go with this any more.
I will pay materials WHEN they show up on my property (or the supplier directly, for delivery to ME).

Work out a draw schedule for larger jobs, X% when A,B,C is done. Y% when D,E,F are done. Also include dates and generous completion estimates, with stipulations as to what happens if not met (if not done with XX days, this agreement is null and void). Protects you and him. Both parties sign it and have their own copies. The line I always use on them is: "Look you are at my HOME, I'm not going anywhere. I don't know you and have never done business with you. I'm not looking to stiff you, and I will pay for all work on delivery, but until we develop a working relationship and you can prove delivery, this is how it has to be. It's a fair approach that protects the contractor AND the home owner."

If they won't work to that, then you don't want them.

Last but not least: Have a LIEN WAVER in hand before you pay him, make him sign it, saying that he has been paid in full and material has been paid in full. This way nobody can come back later and lien your property over this job.

[-Brent-]

Originally Posted by bluesman2a

I won't even go with this any more.
I will pay materials WHEN they show up on my property (or the supplier directly, for delivery to ME).

Work out a draw schedule for larger jobs, X% when A,B,C is done. Y% when D,E,F are done. Also include dates and generous completion estimates, with stipulations as to what happens if not met (if not done with XX days, this agreement is null and void). Protects you and him. Both parties sign it and have their own copies. The line I always use on them is: "Look you are at my HOME, I'm not going anywhere. I don't know you and have never done business with you. I'm not looking to stiff you, and I will pay for all work on delivery, but until we develop a working relationship and you can prove delivery, this is how it has to be. It's a fair approach that protects the contractor AND the home owner."

If they won't work to that, then you don't want them.

Last but not least: Have a LIEN WAVER in hand before you pay him, make him sign it, saying that he has been paid in full and material has been paid in full. This way nobody can come back later and lien your property over this job.

Very well said.