Keswic Cube - Epoxy coat this weekend, but cold feet!

I've been looking forward to this for so long, only to end up worrying about it.

I was one of the lucky winners in the Epoxy Coat contests that Rugerlady has put on. I won a 1/2 kit of Epoxy Coat and a full kit of clear. Shortly after winning the contest, I sold my house and moved into my 'last' home.

Rugerlady was kind enough to hold my winnings until this past spring when I assumed that the job would get done. Well, a miserably hot spring/summer later, the temperature is about right to do the job. Plus, the material has a limited shelf life and I have a limited time budget. So push has come to shove.

I felt that the coming long weekend would be perfect. Kids are all gone, just me at home. No plans, wife is working. I emptied the garage of everything small. All that is left is the rolling cabinets that will get pushed outside.

Having been a while, I re read all of the old posts with tips, tricks and cautions.

Now, I'm afraid to start

I have to push through though and looking for advice to add to my long list. Starting with my plan:

a "2 car" garage that measures 19' x 19'
This is new construction, 1 year old.
The floor was cut into 6 squares, all equal (expansion joints)
There is no cracking except for the end of the joints to the wall, and only hairline cracks less than 6" long.

I plan to leave the cuts, with no filler.
I won't do the diamond grind - I had the floor left with a broom finish and enough posts claim that grinding really didn't help.
I'll end the flooring at the door, although I have the premium polyurea clear coat.

I haven't even opened the pail yet to watch the DVD (tonight!). I still have to make some spike shoes (tonight!) and will go to Home D tomorrow to get and extra squeegee and rollers. Also an extension pole and some spatulas.

Could use a little encouragement and advice to what else I should have available on hand.
Thanks!

xrdad,
the biggest problem is over thinking it. Don't be afraid to get going. My cell # is 586-344-3469. I do after hours tech support on that number. Call me if it will make you feel better or want to talk about any of the process.
Christine

Well if it will make you feel any better I'm doing my 3 car garage this weekend also. I've done it before and I'm still a little nervous. Maybe if it only cost a hundred bucks it would be different.

Thanks Christine..

expect a call!

Picked up some rollers, containers, brush and tape.
Still have to make them shoes...

Pics next week!

rugerlady said:

the biggest problem is over thinking it

Click to expand...

Truth!

Be careful with your measurements and you should be fine.

make sure you have a gas leaf blower handy incase you get any air bubbles. Also i would buy the spike shoes instead of making them, if you screw up and the spikes fall off or they don't work for some reason you'll be in a big mess, you don't have time to be fooling around fixing spikes. also if you buy them make sure you tigthen the spikes before you start or you might be picking nuts out of the epoxy. (happen to me)

get a helper, anybody just a pair of hands can be real helpful.......just follow the directions and things will work out fine
good luck, you'll feel much better after you pour that first barch on the floor and spread it around

It is not rocket science, if you follow mfg directions to a T it should be fine. Make sure you get ratios exactly right and make sure to scrape buckets with a spatula to get ALL material out. My biggest worry for a successful job for you is surface bond with no grinding......

This is it, E day as in Epoxy Coat day.

All of the loose bits were picked up yesterday. Scrapped and scrubbed, etched and washed, swept and inspected.
The kit had granular phosphoric acid. I could see and hear is working, but it's wasn't doing as much as I expected. So I followed up with a mutric acid bath which gave me the visual I expected. I don't think it made much difference in finish, as neither pulled rust stains out of the floor. But the concrete pores are open and it accepts water wherever I test.

The floor is bone dry today, high of 26C forecast, no rain till Monday. Low of 15C today. So if I mess this up, I won't be able to blame the weather.
The flakes have been divided into 6 bags, and I have my measuring cups to do the same with the Epoxy and Clear. The garage has 6 squares in it. I requested it during the construction in hopes that I would never see a settling crack. So far, the cracks are right where they are supposed to be. In the joints/cut lines.

I've taped the edges and am trying a bug trap. I put a second strip of gorilla tape upside down to hold the smaller critters from becoming immortalized in my flooring.

I've been up since 5 AM.. just a little excited and a lot nervous. I requested the help of 2 'friends' that let me know yesterday they just can't make it. My kids are off to their friends cottage to celebrate the long weekend and my wife is working.
Looks like I'm going to be doing this myself... much like a lot of other things around here. Seeing as it's such a small space and my sections are almost tiny, plus my prep and organisation of tools is ideal... no problem.
I'm going to start as soon as I can make sure I won't need a bathroom break!

It's 8am.

I'll check back in before lunch with the floor coated, the flakes down and a positive report with photos...

BRB

Good Luck!

1 man, 1 goal!

The goal = get the Epoxy Coat done by 12. DONE.
Tomorrow, get the Clear done.
So, here's the pics from start to finish on the Epoxy Coat. Tomorrow, I'll get the Clear coat pics uploaded.


Thursday:
My rolling workbench provided me with a place to inspect the contents of the Epoxy Coat buckets. I confirmed that no spike shoes were in the buckets and because it was too late to order or find some, I took the best advice and cautions I could find on GJ. Some #10 1 1/4" pan head screws through 1/2" ply, and another sheet of ply over top. This way, the screws couldn't come back through. Although this did work OK for me, I think purchasing proper spiked shoes would have been a lot easier.
The 12" roller just seemed to small for the task, so I bought the 18" rollers at Home D. And, to my amazement and pleasure, I found something made in Canada?!! USA or Canadian is fine by me, when it's available.
And at the end of the day, my bike is being babysat at a friends.

Friday:

Cleaned all the spots with degreaser, then hit it with the Epoxy Coat acid. Not hearing 'enough' fizz.. so I hit with mutric acid.. now we're fizzing!

Triple washed, then dried. I'm happy and we're good to go.
All flakes separated and ready.

Saturday - 10:30am

2.5 hours, including cleanup.

Oohhh....

Oh yeah..

Black, Red and White (actually, glow in the dark!)

Cabinets will be painted - black on the walls, Snap On red on the floor. Walls will be gray, with a red stripe. The lower 4' of the walls will be tiled in gray.
Not sure when all that will happen, but winter can be long in Canada.

Thanks for checking it out, and feel free to give your opinion.
I'll add the finals tomorrow, but the clear likely won't change anything.


BTW, THANK YOU Christine and Epoxy Coat.
This floor was almost completely won in 2 separate contests.

Nice Job and love the close up quality picture.

Have to ask a few questions.
How much water was used in the 3 time wash? Simple spray or drown it out?
Did you use baking soda or TSP to neutral out the PH in the concrete since you used acid to etch?
Did you squegee out the water, vacuum or fan?
How long from water rinse to apply of epoxy? Estimate hours is fine.
What type of clear do you have left to apply? Epoxy or Polyurea
What was the temperature and humidty when you applied the epoxy?

Thank you

xrad, Great looking job! Good placement on the partial coverage of chips. I know that's a PIA. I know you followed your suppliers recommendations well but was that for the "shoes" also. I sell those for $20.00 bucks and it seems not to be that big of a bargain making your own.

Just a couple of other tid bits I would like to interject. ALLWAYS neutralize after acid etching. Maybe your supplier would like to email me and I'll explain to them the reasoning behind this. A 2 buck bottle of amoninia diluted 8-1 could save a project. Not attempting to take away from your wonderful project. Again good looking install. gene

I just did my 1500 sq/ft basement this morning. I wore a pair of metal baseball cleats the whole time. They allowed me to walk anywhere on the floor at anytime and were not a bother. In disclosure, I am still an active baseball player so I am comfortable in them, and I have plenty of pairs available. Old metal golf spikes would have been my backup. Yes, I know it would not be cost effective to go out and buy a new pair of metal cleats for most people, but it made the job infinitely easier for me.

superdel said:

I just did my 1500 sq/ft basement this morning. I wore a pair of metal baseball cleats the whole time. They allowed me to walk anywhere on the floor at anytime and were not a bother. In disclosure, I am still an active baseball player so I am comfortable in them, and I have plenty of pairs available. Old metal golf spikes would have been my backup. Yes, I know it would not be cost effective to go out and buy a new pair of metal cleats for most people, but it made the job infinitely easier for me.

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You were walking around in style. I sell flexible spike shoes but they are expensive. I attempt to apply everything on a stick and not have to bend over. Our Reflector Enhancer metallic additives that are mixed into our clear epoxies are sometimes troweled on to get a different effect.... I still like my broom handle.

superdel said:

I just did my 1500 sq/ft basement this morning. I wore a pair of metal baseball cleats the whole time. They allowed me to walk anywhere on the floor at anytime and were not a bother. In disclosure, I am still an active baseball player so I am comfortable in them, and I have plenty of pairs available. Old metal golf spikes would have been my backup. Yes, I know it would not be cost effective to go out and buy a new pair of metal cleats for most people, but it made the job infinitely easier for me.

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Hello you tease us with 1500 sqft of install and no mention of MFG or pictures?

You should be ashamed.

The final product:

Things I learned - the gloss on the original Epoxy before the clear is great, but the look of the clear over the Epoxy is stunning.
On Rugerlady's advice, I applied the clear in 2 thin coats. I expect that this will make for a better and stronger coating, but...
the first coat of clear went on a little thicker than the 2nd. The finished first coat was just breathtaking. It made the chips look like they were under glass and the floor was so smooth.
The second coat went on a little thinner - my fault as I didn't separate the container properly. I have the right ratio, just not enough material to give it the same coat as the first time. So the 2nd coat had a bit of an orange peel effect. Then of course, I added the anti slip which took away from the smooth look also. What it did, was remove some of the reflection from the floor and it's not quite as glossy.
What it also did is make for a good strong top coat, a safe anti slip surface and a floor that will be the envy of my neighbours. Rugerlady should prepare herself for at least a few calls

If you're preparing to do this or any other coating, lay down a bug trap as I did. Not one single bug made it to the floor . It is pretty gross yet strangely satisfying to remove the bug trap at the end.

The tools in the kit worked fine for me, although I didn't use EC's buckets or rollers. I used ice cream buckets, a bunch of measuring cups from the buck store and some spatulas. The mixer, brushes and squeegee were fine for the task.

I don't have a single bubble anywhere.
I didn't neutralize the floor either - I explained to Rugerlady that I did use mutric acid and triple washed (min) the floor. I confirmed to her that no residue was felt with the floor dry. She advise that the soda I bought wouldn't be necessary. I have to agree, as the finish couldn't be any better.

I still have one more photo to add to this thread, but I have to go back to my camera manual to figure out how to take it.
I shut all the doors and lights in the shop and just stood in the middle of the floor...
I swear, this would be the best dance floor or kid magnet in the world! The glow in the dark flake is outstanding and the fun factor is huge!
I can hardly wait for my project del Sol to be parked on it for the 'garages at night' thread.

Familyof8kids -

How much water was used in the 3 time wash? I just sprayed it out with my garden hose, but took plenty of time to do it.
Did you use baking soda or TSP to neutral out the PH in the concrete since you used acid to etch? Nope.. my supplier advised to just go ahead with the finish as per the instructions in the kit.
Did you squegee out the water, vacuum or fan? I did use a stiff bristle broom to push some of the standing water out, but with my set of doors front and back, no need to use a fan. It was bone dry in a few hours.
How long from water rinse to apply of epoxy? Roughly 16 hours.
What type of clear do you have left to apply? Polyurea
What was the temperature and humidty when you applied the epoxy? High of close to 80F, overnight low about 55F. Humidity around 86%.
No rain yet (it's like it never rains anymore..).

So now, it's just a matter of deciding when to put everything back in?
Not sure how long the clear has to set before my tools can come back in.

Oh... and the other thing about this flooring...
Now I HAVE to finish my shop! It's way too nice to not keep going now!

dcs Inc said:

I know you followed your suppliers recommendations well but was that for the "shoes" also. I sell those for $20.00 bucks and it seems not to be that big of a bargain making your own.

Click to expand...

Gene, you're spot on. Buy the shoes.
I have $10 in screws invested and it was OK.. just OK. The time and prep to make shoes just isn't worth it.

Quote: Originally Posted by dcs Inc
Just a couple of other tid bits I would like to interject. ALLWAYS neutralize after acid etching. Maybe your supplier would like to email me and I'll explain to them the reasoning behind this. A 2 buck bottle of amoninia diluted 8-1 could save a project. Not attempting to take away from your wonderful project. Again good looking install. gene[/QUOTE]


If you could post the reasoning, I think a lot of people would like to know?
I guess my floor will be a test, to see if the neutralizing was necessary. I understand that each floor, every environment, every user is different.. so sometimes it's best to take every precaution possible (like neutralizing). I tend to be lucky and I suspect this will be the case again. My floor didn't get a vapour barrier either during the build, which most say is a must. Yet, I have no condensation or moisture problems. There's no outgasing or water on my floor. I can leave a cardboard box on the floor for months and it's fine (yes... I had a box of bolts to sort through that sat for an extended period of time on the floor ).

As promised..
You have to imagine the shop is pitch black with the doors down.
The reality is 100% better than the photos.

I'm not sure I understand the problem with failing to netralize. Freshly poured concrete will have a pH of 12-13 mostly due to Ca(OH)2. (calcium hydroxide or lime). As it ages, the concrete surface reacts with carbon dioxide in air (carbonation) and the pH of the surface slowly lowers to ~8.5. Note that concrete is always going to have a high pH (i.e. it is basic and not acidic). So, the pH of any acid etching will likely be neutralized by the concrete itself. Acid washing will result in the formation of some unwanted salts that can attack interior building finishes but these will be removed with a good washing with water. If you wanted to be absolutely sure, you could test the pH of the rinse water and ensure it was no lower than 6.

xrdad, your floor looks great.

grawil said:

I'm not sure I understand the problem with failing to netralize. Freshly poured concrete will have a pH of 12-13 mostly due to Ca(OH)2. (calcium hydroxide or lime). As it ages, the concrete surface reacts with carbon dioxide in air (carbonation) and the pH of the surface slowly lowers to ~8.5. Note that concrete is always going to have a high pH (i.e. it is basic and not acidic). So, the pH of any acid etching will likely be neutralized by the concrete itself. Acid washing will result in the formation of some unwanted salts that can attack interior building finishes but these will be removed with a good washing with water. If you wanted to be absolutely sure, you could test the pH of the rinse water and ensure it was no lower than 6.

xrdad, your floor looks great.

Click to expand...

This is my thinking as well.

Jaguar Fan said:

This is my thinking as well.

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We did the testing of wash water after our 100% strength Muractic Acid wash using my son's fish tank testing strips. We washed the floor with no spray nozzle it was open hose pipe with massive 6-7 gpm. The floor was flooded with water but has a sweet slant to the door some 90% of the water jumps out with no effort. We tested the water that was sitting in a few low spots and it was neutral at 6 or so. The test strips use color code and between pink and red it is neutral so that is why I am stating neutral but could be slightly below neutral.

So many post on google say Muratic Acid use baking soda or coating will fail. That is what most say use baking soda to fail toward safe information.

The best advise is for Epoxy-Coat to add in the instruction to test the PH of the rinse water after the acid etch step.

Great posting and information. This weekend was a great sales weekend for Epoxy-Coat. So many little issues over the past few weeks it is nice to see good outcomes.

I believe Christine is out this week also. 2 weeks off in a month? She must be looking for a job? Rumors starting now!

erdad that floor looks AWESOME!! That is the same color sceme I would like to use on my floor. That is if I could ever get a hold of Christine!! LOL It seems you, Familyof8kids and others have had better luck than me. I have called several times she is either in the warehouse or with a customer.. Probably you. LOL

I have 2400 sf to do though...so I am very very nervous. I thought about buying the 30 gal kit and practice on the garage attached to the house?? Which is only 880 sf.

Great information and Great Floor!!!

I can get back to you guys on this subject as I am writing an article now on why this is not the correct way to prep a floor for a resinous application for my next training class.

grawil scratched on it a little bit. Oh, ammonia would be what I would suggest to use to neutralize with. Powdered goods are too much trouble to clean.

Also, I know you guys don't want to hear it but a power washer is the last thing I'd want to use on a concrete slab when prepping a floor. Of course I'd never suggest using acid as a prep to begin with either. But hey, it's easy, it's quick, it gets materials out the door.

The quick on why I suggest neutralizing. IF there's ANY reactive hydrochloric acid on that floor, your coating will fail. IF there's ANY dried crystallized acid on the floor, your coating will fail. Driving water deep into the capillaries of the surface may cause you problems down the road..... and it could take months. Even if it doesn't show it's ugly head right away, the chemical reactions happening under the surface where you have raised the moisture levels (sure the surface looks dry) can create havoc later.

Let me put it this way. If I powered washed a floor I was going to apply epoxy on, I'd wait a couple of weeks with a dehumidifier running. Then I would test the slab before I applied it with a deep probe, and a surface test.

OK, disclaimer here. There are many different types of epoxies. Some you can even apply under water. Expensive, yes. There are epoxy primers that can be applied on a "wet" floor to lock the moisture in the concrete. I've applied epoxy on a slab I poured 5 days earlier. It cost them but it had to be done to keep on the time line. Yikes.... gotta go. I will be posting this on my blog. (It will be the first post on my new website. I will be posting it on my (new) google site also.

xrdad said:

Quote: Originally Posted by dcs Inc
Just a couple of other tid bits I would like to interject. ALLWAYS neutralize after acid etching. Maybe your supplier would like to email me and I'll explain to them the reasoning behind this. A 2 buck bottle of amoninia diluted 8-1 could save a project. Not attempting to take away from your wonderful project. Again good looking install. gene

Click to expand...

If you could post the reasoning, I think a lot of people would like to know?
I guess my floor will be a test, to see if the neutralizing was necessary. I understand that each floor, every environment, every user is different.. so sometimes it's best to take every precaution possible (like neutralizing). I tend to be lucky and I suspect this will be the case again. My floor didn't get a vapour barrier either during the build, which most say is a must. Yet, I have no condensation or moisture problems. There's no outgasing or water on my floor. I can leave a cardboard box on the floor for months and it's fine (yes... I had a box of bolts to sort through that sat for an extended period of time on the floor ).[/QUOTE]

dcs Inc said:

Driving water deep into the capillaries of the surface may cause you problems down the road..... and it could take months.

Click to expand...

This of course assumes that all concrete slabs are the same PSI and density. Then there's the fact that not all of us live where humidity is ever an issue for anything.

I pressure washed mine to remove the cream that the acid loosens, but doesn't come off with house pressure rinse from the hose. A 60" fan was used to dry the slab in just a few hours, with a piece of plastic taped over the dry slab overnight to be sure that it was dry, and it was. We coated the next day and that was well over a year ago.

I'd love to know what it is about epoxy coating that brings all the doomsday naysayers out of the woodwork.

Thanks for letting me know why I'm here. I'm not trying to sell anything. Must be wanting to spread dome and gloom. Information can be conceived that way I guess.

csp said:

This of course assumes that all concrete slabs are the same PSI and density. Then there's the fact that not all of us live where humidity is ever an issue for anything.

I pressure washed mine to remove the cream that the acid loosens, but doesn't come off with house pressure rinse from the hose. A 60" fan was used to dry the slab in just a few hours, with a piece of plastic taped over the dry slab overnight to be sure that it was dry, and it was. We coated the next day and that was well over a year ago.

I'd love to know what it is about epoxy coating that brings all the doomsday naysayers out of the woodwork.

Click to expand...

Fireguy21 said:

erdad

I have 2400 + 880 sf to do

Great information and Great Floor!!!

Click to expand...

HOLY COW MY FRIEND!

Christine was slammed last week due to vacation the week before and had sales over sales lined up. She is also on vacation or other this week as I heard from her or Jenny last week. I had to actually place my order with Jenny over the phone. Just got lucky a few times and Christine answered on first ring. I think most of the time it was around 11pm CST so she may cover for the other ladies lunch break. I also had a few issues with no response from Jenny for an updated quote and it cost me a week of delay.

With that much flooring to cover you should get a killer deal from a vendor. I would at minimum send in a quote request to the sales email listed on the website and leave no trace for email or name so you can use that for barter. I first did that and had a response quickly. Garage Jounal members get % off or free shipping with almost every vendor on here.

I also would say there is another two vendors on this site that sale Epoxy that were as good if not better with response and answers. They may cost a little more or not but have to say I only took on Epoxy-Coat becasue they said yes to custom John Deere green when I asked. I bet the other would have also and I did not ask.

dcs Inc said:

grawil scratched on it a little bit. Oh, ammonia would be what I would suggest to use to neutralize with. Powdered goods are too much trouble to clean.

...

The quick on why I suggest neutralizing. IF there's ANY reactive hydrochloric acid on that floor, your coating will fail. IF there's ANY dried crystallized acid on the floor, your coating will fail. Driving water deep into the capillaries of the surface may cause you problems down the road..... and it could take months. Even if it doesn't show it's ugly head right away, the chemical reactions happening under the surface where you have raised the moisture levels (sure the surface looks dry) can create havoc later.

Click to expand...

You need to think carefully about both your arguments here. I'm a chemical engineer, not a concrete expert so I'm probably coming at this from a different perspective.

Regarding the acid wash: Understand that muriatic acid (HCl) itself does not crystalize. Never Ever. If you are testing the runoff pH and it is between 6-9, I just don't see the point of neutralizing. The primary salt being formed is simply calcium chloride:
2 HCl + Ca(OH)2 <--> CaCl2 + 2 H2O
which is water soluble (74.5 g/100mL) and acts as a buffer. The fact that CaCl2 is so soluble in water that makes etching concrete with HCl so successful. As you brush a solution of HCl into a concrete slab, you are dissolving more CaCl2 into your slurry and allowing any remaining acid to react with more calcium hydroxide. This will continue until the acid is consumed (chemical equilibrium is reached), it is neutralized, or washed away. The effectiveness of etching will depend on the porosity of the cement paste, on the concentration of the acid, the solubility of the acid calcium salts and on the fluid transport through the concrete.

The key here is that you don't want any residual acid left on the slab when you are finished. In many cases, the reaction with calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2 is going to be sufficient. If you used a very concentrated solution or your concrete was especially porous, then you may indeed need to worry about neutralizing the remaining HCl with ammonia. Again, check the pH of the runoff water if you are unsure, but when the bubbling stops so has the bulk of the reaction.

The big risk of acid washing is with structural concrete where steel reinforcement is used.

Regarding pressure washing: I'm no expert, but I think you need to consider the PSI strength of the material and the PSI output of the pressure washer. I cannot see how washing with a residential pressure washer, is likely to force water too deep into the concrete through capillary action. In fact, capillary action is more likely to occur with standing water and will again depend on the porosity or other transport mechanisms (cracks). Also note that if a concrete slab doesn't have a vapor barrier beneath, then it can dry from both above and below. Putting a coat of epoxy on top, therefore, doesn't always preclude moisture from leaving the slab.

Makes a lot of sense to me Grawil and also lines up with my acid etching and coating experiences.

We did tests long ago and found that we could not put water into a slab with 6,000 psi pressure, it just bounced off. After breaking we could not see any penetration although we only used visual means. A good mix of concrete does not appear to have holes that go straight down. The water jet cannot travel far.

dcs Inc said:

Thanks for letting me know why I'm here. I'm not trying to sell anything. Must be wanting to spread dome and gloom. Information can be conceived that way I guess.

Click to expand...

It's just that too many people come here saying you can't do this and you can't do that, spouting things as if they are fact and applicable to every situation. Then you get the chicken littles scared to apply their floor because of all of the "can't do this" they've read on the internet.

I broke probably half the "can't do this" rules on a couple of epoxy installs and both have turned out great in the short term and long term.

Fireguy21 said:

erdad that floor looks AWESOME!! That is the same color sceme I would like to use on my floor. That is if I could ever get a hold of Christine!! LOL It seems you, Familyof8kids and others have had better luck than me. I have called several times she is either in the warehouse or with a customer.. Probably you. LOL

I have 2400 sf to do though...so I am very very nervous. I thought about buying the 30 gal kit and practice on the garage attached to the house?? Which is only 880 sf.

Great information and Great Floor!!!

Click to expand...

I am so sorry, I guess this is the peril of taking a full weeks vacation after 5 years! Call me tomorrow at the office and I will drop everything for your call. If you want to talk tonite call my cell 586-344-3469.

xrdad, I knew you could do it!! The floor looks amazing!

Been busy. 10k hangar, 2800 sq.ft. laundry/tan place.... who the hell ever came up with that combo?

I've not gotten my little speech together but thought I'd chime in. I'll agree that every situation is different but better to error on the safe side.
ah hell, might as well get started. This isn't done by the way, I still have a few more days before my next class.

Moisture is transmitted through concrete in a capillarity action. Estimates of moisture transfer through concrete can exceed 12 gallons of water per day, per 1,000 sq. ft. Who says concrete is nothing but a hard sponge.

Moisture transmits in a vapor form and always upward. Moisture wont drop out of concrete on the bottom. Only during the initial hydration will water dissipate on the bottom side of concrete and only then shortly after the pour. From that point moisture is upward bound, forever. (well, at least the life of the concrete)

Moisture, as I stated earlier travels in a vapor form. This pure water is attracted to and carries alkali's, salts and other additives that is found in all concrete. These salts are mostly in the form of sodium and potassium. They're are others but these are the most reactive, destructive, alkali metals. Moisture activates these alkali's and the reaction create a destructive alkaline solution creating a chemical reaction, saponification. (google that tile guys)

Efflorescence can be caused by more than calcium hydroxide and carbon dioxide. A much faster reaction than calcium hydroxide can happen by other hydroxides and sulfates, potassium and sodium. ( I know, it needs more work)

Anyway, on to my point. Failures are caused by one or more of the following. moisture, alkali or hydrostatic pressure.

Porosity of concrete varies in each slab. Capillaries (cavities) in concrete are mostly created by the amount of water in the initial mix at time of placement. Higher slump pours (more water in the mix) creates larger voids (capillaries) when the water hydrates out of the concrete. During the hydration, these capillaries tend to form chains. (It's a chemical thing) these little super highways allow moisture (vapor) to rise to the surface bringing along all the destructive alkaline solutions with it.

Now lets force water below the surface with a power washer. The more open the capillaries, the deeper the moisture travels. This moisture, now attracted to the ever present alkali's in the mix, start to create alkaline solution. This solution causes even more vapor to draw up from below because of the neutral vapor attraction to the salts above.

OK, after the surface dries from the moisture, you squirt some water on it and pull out the test strip to check the acidity. Well you just checked the water you poured on it. You need pure water to check these strips. Pour on about an inch of it onto the concrete, let it sit for a minute and then dip your test strip into it.

Even though the surface is dry, the chemical reaction under the surface is taking place in form of moisture turning into vapor, reacting to the alkali's below the surface, inviting even more vapors from below due to the salt attraction.

Osmotic blisters in epoxy are created by this. Damn I know I should have organized this first. Anyway, lets talk about hydrochloric acid.

Did you know this is the most destructive chemical available off the shelf? Lets get past the horrid of what this stuff does to the lungs and to the environment. Lets go past the destructive nature of the cement bond it destroys on the surface. If you allow muriatic acid to dry on the surface it can form crystals that are difficult to remove from a porous surface. If left they can cause major failure of the bonding of epoxy. Pre wet the concrete and keep it wet. Neutralize the concrete slurry before you wash it down the drain or out into the yard.

Ah hell, theres a bunch more but that's enough for tonight. All this can be found through the ACI and ASTM's. Didn't talk about CSP ratings (profiles), what hydrochloric acid doesn't react to......

csp said:

It's just that too many people come here saying you can't do this and you can't do that, spouting things as if they are fact and applicable to every situation. Then you get the chicken littles scared to apply their floor because of all of the "can't do this" they've read on the internet.

I broke probably half the "can't do this" rules on a couple of epoxy installs and both have turned out great in the short term and long term.

Click to expand...

Dang you now I have to go out and wet it down again.

Gene,
Good job. I beg to differ on power washers though.
When a pressure jet is aimed at the surface the pressure is very high at the nozzle and even 6,000 psi is a mere mist from a fan jet after a few feet. When it hits the instant impact is strong, but that almost instantly becomes zero pressure after.
If I had a pressure-sealed container glued to the concrete and I applied 6,000 psi into that I am sure some of the water will penetrate because of the pressure, but even then, as you said, vapour not water droplets is what passes through so I think the water that gets into concrete that way would be negligible.
So I still do not believe that pressure washing is forcing water into concrete slabs.

Edger, I got up early to re-read my post to clean it up a little. I'll let it stand for now. Trying to organize 4 pages of scribbles is going to take me a little time. I'm going to search for a study that was done a few years back on forced water transfer through concrete. I'm going to pull my hard drive from my old computer to find my reference point on that subject. It was noteworthy to me. I've also noted your reference to a fan spray tip. I do remember the amount of water forced deeper into concrete was directly related to the pressure. There is a recent study done on moisture transfer on standing water. I think I have that point of reference.

No argument about concrete's ability to soak up water vapour which condenses at the top, just do not think it is possible to force it down instantaneously.