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Old 09-24-2011, 11:56 AM   #21
Rich H.
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

It would have been better to hang the ceiling fan after paint, but the scaffold had to be returned...and I felt like I was playing Russian roulette every time I went too near the top of 10 foot stepladder.

So I went ahead with the fan, and will just have to paint around it best as I can.

Garage quality: Form follows function. And several other excuses
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Old 09-24-2011, 12:02 PM   #22
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

awesome build!! can't wait for the move in
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Old 09-24-2011, 12:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Mooney time.

As the legend goes, a man named John Mooney developed a unique method for insulating walls and had documented it on the fine homebuilding breaktime forums. Over the course of time, his method became known as a "Mooney Wall". Feel free to ask any questions and/or google it, there is alot of information out there on it.

In a nutshell it entails horizontal strapping over the studs, then an inexpensive synthetic fabric known as insulmesh or insulweb is stretched and staped over the strapping. Glue is applied over the stapled areas. Then holes are poked in the insulmesh, and finally cellulose is blown in to a very high density. When done correctly, the insulated areas feel like a firm mattress.

There is a common misunderstanding that all insulation requires loft to function correctly. I've found this is not true of cellulose...cellulose performs best overall when densely packed.

Overall performance--including least air intrusion and least sound transfer (neither of which is addressed by R value) is improved using this method.

In certain areas of the building, Mooney was not practical and would have required too much extra effort.....but the all important west wall, and the east wall that faces the house both have it. Best sound deadening facing east, least air intrusion facing west. It isn't perfect but alot of thought went into it.
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Old 09-24-2011, 12:50 PM   #24
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

It makes one hella mess. It's dusty. It's this, it's that, and so on.

All the insulation calculators are wrong for dense packed.

The calculators said I needed 34 bags.

I used 52

Again Sam and Alex helped, again I paid them by the hour...and again we worked until late at night....this time until 1:30am. Though they think it's fun to stay up late, I worked them very hard and everyone was even more worn out than when we did the ceiling.

The HD Greenfiber junk machine can not do this job, it isn't capable of producing enough air pressure for dense pack. Same with the stuff Lowes had.

On top of that, HD's price on cellulose was $9 per bag vs. Menards $6 per bag retail/$1 per bag rebate for exactly the same thing, and Menards had a fantastic Krendl branded machine with some horsepower. The menards machine worked flawlessly and was actually difficult to hold on to at times, it is much more powerful.
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:19 PM   #25
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamaharacing21 View Post
awesome build!! can't wait for the move in
Thank you! I'm getting anxious too, and am not quite there yet...
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Old 09-24-2011, 01:41 PM   #26
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

horizontal strapping gives more opportunities for vertical paneling.

Which, after I did the math, is saving me a whole bunch of mud work. I'm thankful it worked out that way. Being an ameteur I didn't consider it at all when I started.

I didn't entirely "go Mooney"....too inconvienient for the way the subpanel and exhaust fan is installed, would have created too much work on the wall above the shelf. But I did use the insulweb technique everywhere else I could.

One other thing about the Mooney technique....a rank amateur like me can easily see and feel exactly how densely the cellulose is packed, and any missed areas are easily found and corrected. With my lack of skills and experience I would not want to blow blind into a pre-finished wall, and I would only trust a pro to do that. Not everyone would agree, many are more adventurous, etc.

There are probably 100 mistakes in these two pics, but it will all work out to garage quality in the end.
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Old 09-24-2011, 09:25 PM   #27
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Mistakes! What to do?

I have researched and read on other boards where professional tapers have to deal with other people's mistakes all the time. Was very interested in learning the techniques they use to get around common problems, like gaps between panels caused by drywall hung slightly crooked or slightly out of alignment with each other.

I did these myself with no help, and of course had gaps between panels to deal with as a result. 10 footers are heavy and clumsy, I did the best I could.

A couple of the pros posted that they
"pre fill with (insert number here, usually 90)".

After awhile I figured it out. Fill the gaps with a setting type (not an air dry all purpose!) compound. Then after it sets, scrape it with the knife blade flexed into the joint to slightly undercut the pre fill. Then "knockdown" (scrape all the burrs and lines off, remove sharp edges, and then tape as usual.

If it cracks, it will crack UNDER the tape and won't be visible. And if you use a setting type compound (20 minute is my favorite), it's much less likely to crack at all, ever.

This stuff is common knowledge to alot of folks, but sure wasn't to me when I started.

So here are some nasty gaps I had on the same wall as the previous couple shots, that I pre filled. I'm going to knock it down and tape it tomorrow.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:17 PM   #28
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

More benefit from studying the pro drywall forums....

Most books a homeowner will read will say embed the tape, maybe apply a thin coat over the top of it, then let dry completely. After that the books say you're supposed to apply a filler coat, then a topcoat.

That never worked consistently for me, because the second step (fill coat) needs to be such a huge amount of mud I always had trouble judging it. I'd create too much extra work for myself because of that.

As it turns out, my problem was common. The drywall forums set me straight. The solution is called "tape coat". I had never heard of it before.

To do tape coat, you embed the tape, and then apply at least half of your fill coat immediately, then allow that to set up. This allows the second coat to typically be much thinner, easier to apply, easier to judge....and the kicker is...it's actually less likely to crack than doing it the way the homeowner books tell you to.

Why is it less likely to crack? Because the compound is designed to lock into the paper. The drying characteristics of mud on paper are much better and far more desirable than mud on mud.

Not sure if it's a trade secret but it sure works...maybe some won't agree and that's ok with me.

I taped and tape coated the inside corners and butt joints, on top of the shelf today. Here is a shot of the first pass...I don't expect to need very much mud for my second coat and I really like it that way.
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:30 PM   #29
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Here's where I'm at on the west wall as of today. I might put one more coat on the screw heads, but other than that it just needs sanding and then it's ready for primer.

The primer I chose is Sheetrock branded, called "first coat". It has gypsum in it and it's supposed to help hide your mistakes..and mask irregularities. We will find out, won't we? At this point I'll take all the help I can get
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Here's the back/north wall underneath the shelf. Only needs sanding before primer, no more mud going on it unless I find any big issues.

There's a definite art to mud and tape...again, much respect to the guys who do this every day...it ain't easy.
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Old 09-24-2011, 11:05 PM   #31
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Here's the view sitting on the shelf, looking south-southwest.

Still need to mud and tape above the door, the top of the east wall, and the southeast corner. I've put off doing the southeast corner until last because that's where the radiant boiler and integrator panel are supposed to go, and I want to make sure I get everything right before it's closed up.

Those with a sharp eye will notice the panels' paper on the ceiling is a slightly different color than the walls.....I mixed brands and used USG 'Ultralight' for the entire ceiling and gables, but used 99% LaFarge for the walls. I also used a small amount of Georgia Pacific "Tough Rock" on this project; one sheet in a small area. Three different brands...it'll finish just fine being all the same dimensions.

If anyone cares for a comparison between the different brands of drywall, I'll post it up....I've definitely developed opinions after working with all three.
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Old 09-27-2011, 10:19 AM   #32
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Took some time off work, spent most of the day yesterday sanding the north wall and ceiling above the shelf, and taping the south wall.

I got the wall above the shelf about halfway sanded, when the phone rang. Alex had puked in the hall at school and I had to go bring him home.... there I was, looking like I just jumped into a vat of flour, covered from head to toe in drywall dust.....so, shower/cleaned up/changed clothes, went and got him and came back. Changed clothes, went right back to work and got that wall all sanded out. I'm not going to do a second coat, it doesn't need it! Very happy about that.

Then dinner time...got cleaned up and changed clothes yet again. Had dinner, chilled out for awhile, and got to thinking (uh oh).

"What if my mudwork isn't as....decent....for lack of a better word....as I think it is? What if it really sucks and is going to look krappy?"

Thought about it....thought about it....and after a little while I couldn't stand it anymore, and had to check my mud work out so I primed the north wall under the shelf last night before bed.

Came out for a look this morning...and I am VERY pleased with it. I didn't think I could do that kind of work especially with only two coats of mud. Very relieved and glad

Seeing this is giving me a kick in the pants to keep going, which at this point...as beat up as i feel, really helps.

That's the end of an old used Lista industrial workbench, with a used Equipto industrial cabinet underneath it, that I picked up for cheap. My sincere apologies they are neither color coordinated, nor are they beautiful and shiny at this juncture Someday, just not today.

Happy birthday to me
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:16 PM   #33
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Rich H.,HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU!

Thanks for your thorough documentation of the build, and kudos to you for your one-man (and two boys) finish effort.

A couple of questions:
- What are some of your favorite 'rock & mudding' sites for tips and tricks? My shop has had the initial taping done, and it is up to me to finish it.
- For future reference, what brand of rock did you prefer, and why?
- What sheen of paint did you choose? Semi-gloss seems to me to be the best trade-off between light reflectivity, ease of cleaning, dust resistance, and the ability not to highlight too many occurrences of our amateur mud jobs. lol
- Are you going to spray the finish coat(s) on and dry-roll the paint in, or are you going to roll/cut the entire job?

It seems to me that since the GC finished, you have been working your butt off (10#!), pretty much single handed, AND getting one hell of a lot of it knocked out; I applaud your efforts.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:55 PM   #34
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Good job Rich....keep after it!
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:41 PM   #35
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Thanks fellas, appreciate the comments!

It's been a pretty uneventful birthday, which considering how things have been going, is nothing I'm going to complain about

Just knocked out some errands today and took it easy, got license plates and stuff like that....and really didn't do much in the shop other than open it up and air out the fumes. The primer and mud combination is a smelly one. I can handle one or the other, but not both at the same time.

While I was out running errands, I remembered a light fixture HD had on clearance that I saw when picking up the last box-o-mud....thought about for a minute, but didn't get. I went back and got it today, so that's my 10 dollar birthday present to myself It's sort of a rustic look I guess? I'm going to try to keep things fairly modern looking in there but don't mind mixing in a few other influences too. This is the "one bulb by the door" light, so I won't have to turn on every light in the shop to just run in there for a second and grab a screwdriver or whatever...

Skeptic, those are great questions! I made a lot of mistakes, my work is not perfect...so take what I say with a grain of salt...but will try to answer best as I can.

- What are some of your favorite 'rock & mudding' sites for tips and tricks? My shop has had the initial taping done, and it is up to me to finish it.

With your tape done, you're 1/3 of the way home! Just fill, sand, topcoat, voila. Sounds easy doesn't it??? It isn't!!! The best drywall forum I have found is http://www.drywalltalk.com/

- For future reference, what brand of rock did you prefer, and why?

USG Sheetrock UltraLight FTW. It is very strong and it has a "bouncy/springy" quality to it...almost like a thin piece of plywood..really amazing....it cuts/snaps the cleanest, but it is also the lightest weight. Not surprisingly, it is also the most expensive compared to the other brands I tried. I used it exclusively on my ceiling, which is also glued and screwed. Didn't want it coming down on my head. It was $7 a sheet for 4x8, which I thought was a lousy value until I compared it to other brands and understood what I was getting.

LaFarge LiftLite was second place, GP tough rock a very, very distant third.

- What sheen of paint did you choose? Semi-gloss seems to me to be the best trade-off between light reflectivity, ease of cleaning, dust resistance, and the ability not to highlight too many occurrences of our amateur mud jobs. lol

It's just primer right now, but I'm with you on semi gloss for the walls. I will be using a flat for the ceiling though, to try to hide my mistakes a little better. Am also expermenting with roller nap.....I used 1/2" nap on the wall, and seems close....I might go 3/4" on the ceiling for more texture and better concealment of mistakes though.

- Are you going to spray the finish coat(s) on and dry-roll the paint in, or are you going to roll/cut the entire job?

Will probably roll and cut it....I painted my house that way in '07 and am used to doing it that way.

Thanks again for the nice remarks
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Old 09-27-2011, 11:24 PM   #36
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Rich H., thanks for the reply! I'll check out the site you listed.
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Old 09-28-2011, 12:09 AM   #37
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Wow looks similar to my build. I have to say, the drywall has been the worst aspect so far.
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:15 AM   #38
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Wow, I see what you mean

I'm also probably going to put AC in mine like you have...will be going with a window unit and picked out of the windows based on that.

Back to the daily grind....

I think I'll primer the wall above the shelf tonight possibly...maybe some of the ceiling too.

Or maybe I'll make a giganic mess and sand the west wall down/mud the east wall some more?

It probably doesn't matter as long as something gets done...
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Old 09-28-2011, 11:23 AM   #39
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

Happy Birthday Rich and thanks for the detailed write up on drywall...lots of us have those same questions.

Shaun
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Old 09-29-2011, 06:22 PM   #40
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Default Re: 24x30 build in progress

You bet Shaun and thx for the birthday wishes!

Sanded and primed the west wall last night...it was another late one...

I'm glad I did that now instead of waiting, as I found a couple missed spots I don't want to live with, that I can take care of without much effort. Nothing big.

Even with that, when I walked in there this morning before work...I was stoked big time
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