Plomb Pebbled Transition into Proto

[Steven67fr]

Hello, I have been curious about this for a while. I have seen flatter handled Plomb ratchets as well as a more rounded handle and I have also seen the rounded handle produced as a Proto marked tool. I would imagine there was also a dual marked Plomb/Proto tool as well.

Was the flatter handle produced earlier, with the more rounded handle coming into production closer to the transition to Proto.

I'm also wondering how long the pebbled Proto design was produced?

Pictured below are the designs I'm referencing. On the right is the flatter handled Plomb, with the more rounded handle in the middle and, finally, the Proto pebbled handle on the right.

Just curious if any of you had any ideas.

Thanks,
StevenFl.

[Outlawmws]

Based on the "Made in USA" vs MFG in USA, I would but the top one as the earlier ratchet.

Not exactly sure how long they made the pebbled tools, but for much of the 30's and 40's for sure.

[Gort the giant robot]

Did Plomb / Proto have dual marked ratchets like they did with wrenches ?

Gort the giant robot.

[Plombob]

Originally Posted by Gort the giant robot

Did Plomb / Proto have dual marked ratchets like they did with wrenches ?

Gort the giant robot.

I've seen them, but don't have any.

[Plombob]

Originally Posted by Steven67fr

Hello, I have been curious about this for a while. I have seen flatter handled Plomb ratchets as well as a more rounded handle and I have also seen the rounded handle produced as a Proto marked tool. I would imagine there was also a dual marked Plomb/Proto tool as well.

Was the flatter handle produced earlier, with the more rounded handle coming into production closer to the transition to Proto.

I'm also wondering how long the pebbled Proto design was produced?

Pictured below are the designs I'm referencing. On the right is the flatter handled Plomb, with the more rounded handle in the middle and, finally, the Proto pebbled handle on the right.

Just curious if any of you had any ideas.

Thanks,
StevenFl.

I'll ask around, but my impression is that the differences are simply manufacturing changes. Stay tuned.

Pebble designs were primarily from the 1940s. The design carried over into Proto tools, such as the larger ratchets and flare nut wrenches.

[Steven67fr]

I will definitely stay tuned. I know I have seen the flatter and more rounded variations on every drive size with the exception of 3/4. I have Proto's that are of the pebbled design in both 1/2 and 1 inch drive sizes... Curious if these were just made the year of the name change or if it continued into the 50's.

StevenFl.

[coldfusion21]

Originally Posted by Gort the giant robot

Did Plomb / Proto have dual marked ratchets like they did with wrenches ?

Gort the giant robot.

Ya I have a 3/4" dual marked ratchet. I think almost all the tools were dual marked at some point.

[johnnybentwrench]

Lets see the Tool Box too.

[Gort the giant robot]

I have a odd ball socket that is in brand new/unused condition. It is a Proto socket with P&C and the P&C part number printed in ink on it. I have always wondered If Plomb/Proto had P&C also making tools for them being they owned since 1941 ? I have a pear head P&C ratchet that is the same as a Plomb/Proto 1/2 inch drive # 5449 ratchet except for the side cover.

Gort the giant robot

[Bolster]

Originally Posted by Steven67fr

Hello, I have been curious about this for a while. I have seen flatter handled Plomb ratchets as well as a more rounded handle and I have also seen the rounded handle produced as a Proto marked tool. I would imagine there was also a dual marked Plomb/Proto tool as well.

Was the flatter handle produced earlier, with the more rounded handle coming into production closer to the transition to Proto.

Hi there! Sorry I'm late to the discussion; got an email from PlomBob so I am reporting for duty now.

I'm confident the flat handled raw metal Plomb was earliest; the rounded (I call it "puffy") and often chromed Plomb in the pre-transitional and transitional era (I have a rounded handle dual marked breaker bar); and then for a short amount of time, the pebbled Proto rat.

According to my timeline: the very first pebble anything was 1939, on Plomb's pliers. It was a subcontractor's idea, but Plomb adopted it in short order. The last year of Plomb pebble wrenches was likely 1947. PRVTV came out in 1948 (possibly January?), and the transitionals (dual marked) are from this year. Personally I think the grind-offs start to occur in mid or late 1948.

I've seen a dual-marked 1/2" rat, belonging to my good friend V8Garage, the filthy bastard who won't sell it to me. I mean, my excellent good friend who won't sell it to me. (The filthy selfish bastard.) That wonderful and considerate bastard got me started on this collecting in the first place, and has otherwise been very generous to me, and I am grateful to him for it, the big greedy jerk. (I would also like to extend these tender sentiments to my friend PlomBob, too, and a variety of other bastages who collect Plomb who don't haunt this list. Nuts to all of you, my good and dear friends.)

In 1949 the PFPs, the Pebble Field Protos, are introduced for wrenches. Also I have a note that some additional PFPs are added in 1950 (possibly the ratchet??). March 25, 1950 is the last time you see the word Plomb on anything. I think the PFP wrenches ended by 1956. However, you could still find a few pebble Proto items into the 1970s--a 1" ratchet, a pickle bar, line wrenches, pullers. In 1984 IR sold Proto to Stanley. Maybe that was the final end of anything pebble? Just a guess.

But it's possible those pebbles were spread over 40 years...!

Never seen a dual mark 3/8 or 1/4 rat, lots of things I've never seen dual marked. But you can find the dual marked 3/8 hinge handle fairly easily. I have one.

That's a nice threesome you have there Steven. I see you are also a Plomb Nutz SoCal boy like me 'n' Bob 'n' JohnnyBent. Welcome to the nuthouse.

[Plombob]

Ol Bolster pretty much got it right. The consensus is:

Flat handles are earlier. The rounded handle was at the tail end of the Plomb era. It was sold into the dual marked transition period and into the Proto line.

This applies to 1/2 drive and up, we haven’t seen any dual marked 1/4 or 3/8 ratchets.

Here's a photo to whet your appetite.



Now Bolster says these are easy to find, but I've never seen one. I think he's had too much Gopher and it's gone to his head.

[DonkDonk]

Originally Posted by Gort the giant robot

Did Plomb / Proto have dual marked ratchets like they did with wrenches ?

Gort the giant robot.

I scored this 3/4" drive set at a flea market $60 in the spring, it has a double marked pebble ratchet.

[davesnothere]

What's with the prvtv? Since joining gj, thanks to all you plombheads, I've managed to fill a big old cantilever box, and then some, with plomb and pebble proto stuffs, and this is the first I've seen of it?

Edit: nevermind, I'm a dumdum. I now see prvtv is proto. Couldn't really see the tops of the v's in that picture.

[Gort the giant robot]

Just when you think one knows alot about PLOMB / PROTO tools, new stuff pops up. I have seen some P&C pebbled tools also. I once owned a P&C pebbled 1/4 inch drive ratchet, but in a weak moment and my lust for money I sold it.

Gort the giant robot.

[Bolster]

Originally Posted by DonkDonk

I scored this 3/4" drive set at a flea market $60 in the spring, it has a double marked pebble ratchet.

You Bastage! It's beautiful!!

[Steven67fr]

Sorry I've been out of the thread so long... Work and studies beckon. Glad I wasn't too far off from the general concensus with my hypothesis. I also have a dual marked 3/8 breaker in great shape... Found it burried in an old roll away at the swap meet. It sure was a time period with a lot of changees in name and design.

Actally, I just found a dual marked pebble field 1210-L combo at an estate sale this morning on the way to class.

Bolster and plombob, which cities are you locates in... Curious if we're hitting the same swap meets/plomb holes. I'm in santa ana.

[justin10054]

Originally Posted by Bolster

Personally I think the grind-offs start to occur in mid or late 1948.

i've seen lots of the earlier (non-pebble) wrenches with the logo ground off at swap meets. i was under the impression these were blems.
i also once picked up a plomb flare nut wrench at a swap meet with the handle coated in rubber so that you couldn't see the logo. based on the style, i assumed is was plomb or proto and after applying some epoxy remover, proved it to be plomb. the handle looks brand new, so i'm guessing this was done during the transitional period to sell off old stock with plomb logos.

[Gort the giant robot]

I too saw a lot of PLOMB tools with the name ground also. I just thought they had faults and were probably sold at a discount to employees. About 20 years ago there was a flea market on weekends at a dog race track in Portland Oregon. There was a guy there that had boxes of PROTO tools with the names ground off, but had enough of the stamped name still on them that one could read. I still have a PROTO pickle fork with the name ground off. Has served me well at the wrecking yard all thease years.

EvilDr235

[Bolster]

I won't go so far as to say that a grindoff ISN'T a second, but I'll bet most of them were casualties to the lawsuit. Plomb didn't really believe that the judge meant "Change your name RIGHT NOW and do NOT use the word PLOMB" and so they got caught with a huge amount of Plomb-marked stock in '48 they could not sell unless they did the grindy-grindy. Even the dual marked items were "illegal" although for some reason you don't see them ground (??) Plomb lost a tremendous amount of money in 1948...not just from having to sell ugly grindy tools, but they had to pay a quarter million to Plumb for "damages." Actually it was a punative judgment against Plomb for not changing the name quickly enough...the Judge felt slighted.

Sometimes you can find a Plomb grindoff with a Proto overstamp! I don't own any, though.

I imagine that grind-offs trickled out of the new Proto company for several years. Drawings of the old Plomb campus show large storehouses, so there was likely a BIG backlog of Plomb-marked tools they had to get out the door one way or the other.

A rubber over-mold is clever; I had never seen or heard of that before!!

A PROTO grindoff would be a different kettle of fish. That would not be caused by a lawsuit.

[Steven67fr]

In my experience most of my personal tools that are grind offs (and pre-transitional period) do indeed have some defect. The end broaching on one of my 3/8 ratchets is too small, the sizes are stamped on the wrong ends of the wrenches, the head is crooked on a 3/8ths breaker bar, Punches with the wrong sizes marked, punches with the label not centered... I am sure there are more, but I'm not in front of my boxes at the moment.

I've got one dual marked grind-off that comes to mind, it does not appear to have any defects.

I picked up a chest from the late 30's/early 40's at a garage sale a few years back an it was LOADED with Plomb/Proto grind offs due to minor defects. ($15 hehe... just had to throw that in) Talked with the homeowner (son of original owner of chest) and found out the owner of the chest was a Plomb/Proto factory worker and purchased the tools through a factory outlet for minor defect "unsellables".

All neat stuff.