Foreign Made Tools

Detroit Diesel Man · Dec 1, 2007

I guess I dont understand all the crticisim that Foreign tools get..aside from the obvious junk sold at HF and other places..I dont understand what the big deal is ..everybody flips out because their S.O./MAC/Craftsman stuff is made overseas...ever think about how much stuff in your shop/house is foreign made?? everything from your coffee pot to your TV/ipod/phone etc..the list is endless..its the way of the world and Global Trading..regardless of where the tool was made or manufatured...buying a tool should be based on how you use it and the warranty that comes with it...I guess it irritates me that SO/MAC/Craftsman all get bad raps from people just because a majority of their tools are manufatured over seas..yes we could use the employment here..but then that 19.99 set of Craftsman pliers would cost you 99.99..personally I dont care where the tools are made as long as they work and if they fail I get them replaced with no hassle...thats why I buy the S.O. Tools I buy..not neccesarily because they are S.O but their service for me is second to none. Rant over.

DDM

Blacknwhitepit · Dec 1, 2007

I don't have an issue with foreign made tools. I just have an issue with me buying foreign made tools.

For the purpose of my discussion I will define foreign made tools here as being made in Mexico, Taiwan and China. I do not put these in the same category as tools made in Germany, England, France or Italy.

1. These "Eastern made tools" are almost universally inferior in quality, durability and fit as compared to USA or Western European made counterparts.

2. I have been injured by some of these inferior tools using them "as described"

3. I don't want to have to replace a tool. I want it to work for as long as possible.

4. If it says MAC, MATCO or Snapon I expect that for my extra money, It will not break! So you can do like MAC is doing now, selling cheap Taiwanese $#it that will break, but the margin is so good that MAC can keep replacing it. I don't want it to break in the first place!!

5. When the Snap on guy took out the new cordless driver and handed it to me and said it was $62.00 (or so) it was MADE in china. Well, I could just go to Harbor freight and buy their $6.47 special with extended warranty and get pretty much the same junk.

6. I don't want a BADGE Engineered wrench that says MAC, Snap on or MATCO that costs $35.00 and is essentially a $1.40 Harbor freight highly polished wrench.

"SO/MAC/Craftsman all get bad raps from people just because a majority of their tools are manufatured over seas"

If you look at the Hard line of tools most SO and Craftsman is still made in the USA. Its the stuff that "plugs in" that is overseas made.

I think we had this discussion about how much of MAC is made overseas. I would agree that a majority of tools on a MAC truck is Overseas made. I would not say the same for a SO truck.

....

Cheap imported tools do have their use for people who don't use them frequently. But as for full time wrenching, there is no comparison.

Like you said, you buy Snap on because you can get it easily replaced. I agree. I just don't want to keep having to replace the same thing over and over!

Lastly, I know that I will have to pay more for USA made tools as more and more companies exploit low wage countries to outsource their tool production. The worst case is a new lower standard will be forced upon me. I.E. all major tool companies make their tools overseas, they break, but they are replaced. I'm sure that there will always be some made in the USA and the price will be expensive, but I will pay for it.

JMHO

-BWP

What do these two have in common! Both made in China!

$62.00

$6.47

eschoendorff · Dec 1, 2007

Blacknwhitepit said:
I don't have an issue with foreign made tools. I just have an issue with me buying foreign made tools.

For the purpose of my discussion I will define foreign made tools here as being made in Mexico, Taiwan and China. I do not put these in the same category as tools made in Germany, England, France or Italy.

1. These "Eastern made tools" are almost universally inferior in quality, durability and fit as compared to USA or Western European made counterparts.

2. I have been injured by some of these inferior tools using them "as described"

3. I don't want to have to replace a tool. I want it to work for as long as possible.

4. If it says MAC, MATCO or Snapon I expect that for my extra money, It will not break! So you can do like MAC is doing now, selling cheap Taiwanese $#it that will break, but the margin is so good that MAC can keep replacing it. I don't want it to break in the first place!!

5. When the Snap on guy took out the new cordless driver and handed it to me and said it was $62.00 (or so) it was MADE in china. Well, I could just go to Harbor freight and buy their $6.47 special with extended warranty and get pretty much the same junk.

6. I don't want a BADGE Engineered wrench that says MAC, Snap on or MATCO that costs $35.00 and is essentially a $1.40 Harbor freight highly polished wrench.

"SO/MAC/Craftsman all get bad raps from people just because a majority of their tools are manufatured over seas"

If you look at the Hard line of tools most SO and Craftsman is still made in the USA. Its the stuff that "plugs in" that is overseas made.

I think we had this discussion about how much of MAC is made overseas. I would agree that a majority of tools on a MAC truck is Overseas made. I would not say the same for a SO truck.

....

Cheap imported tools do have their use for people who don't use them frequently. But as for full time wrenching, there is no comparison.

Like you said, you buy Snap on because you can get it easily replaced. I agree. I just don't want to keep having to replace the same thing over and over!

Lastly, I know that I will have to pay more for USA made tools as more and more companies exploit low wage countries to outsource their tool production. The worst case is a new lower standard will be forced upon me. I.E. all major tool companies make their tools overseas, they break, but they are replaced. I'm sure that there will always be some made in the USA and the price will be expensive, but I will pay for it.

JMHO

-BWP

Couldn't have said it better myself. :beer:

REFLEXX · Dec 1, 2007

What he said!

MarkH · Dec 1, 2007

Great comments.

And you did not cover the economic reality that is happening today. You import because it is cheap without corresponding local and export production, the value of your currency goes down and soon the cheap **** costs you more than the stuff it replaced.

Lets see Japan was cheap, currency changed now they have to produce here or elsewhere, we cannot afford the made in Japan and that was just the start, it keeps happening.

So along with the above, I usually find that long term I end up paying more or having to buy HF class junk. The high quality imports seem to currently be going for the same or little more than locally made.

hiavia · Dec 1, 2007

I'll purchase foreign made tools if it's good quality. Remember Japan prewar made pretty shoddy products, now there products are the best in the world. I don't mind buying stanley products made in Taiwan because it's manufactured to stanleys specifications. I'm not a professional mechanic so snap-on doesn't make sense to me. I just need tools for the occasional weekend job. I like craftsman because the price is right and the quality is good. S-K has some QC problems. It seems as long as a plant overseas is managed correctly it can produce the same quality in the USA. Taiwan is a highly developed country and has the same living standards as here. China is not. On my electonic products I would rather see made in Taiwan then China or Malaysia.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 1, 2007

In the case of power tools, due to the number of subassemblies, it would suprise the heck out of me if country of origin is a calculable thing to an end user. It isn't like manufacturing companies do soup to nuts fabrication anymore.

Hand tool wise, since I tend to buy sets, you can really tell where a thing is built. I just wish that the US companies made packaging for tools (casework, inserts, etc.) that was half as nice as the Germans. It isn't rocket science.

SpiderGearsMan · Dec 1, 2007

most of my snap on tools are made in usa , as are my red wing shoes , my 95% us content chevrolet , my 20 year old zenith tv ... I search US made only , in support of my fellow Americans

wilbilt · Dec 1, 2007

SpiderGearsMan said:
most of my snap on tools are made in usa , as are my red wing shoes , my 95% us content chevrolet , my 20 year old zenith tv ... I search US made only , in support of my fellow Americans

You would be SOL in this town. There is a Chevy dealer and a store that sells Red Wings (at list + 25%), but for everything else, its Mao Mart or nothing.

krusty the clown · Dec 1, 2007

american cars, american motorcycles, american whiskey and american tools........nuff said.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 1, 2007

SpiderGearsMan said:
most of my snap on tools are made in usa , as are my red wing shoes , my 95% us content chevrolet , my 20 year old zenith tv ... I search US made only , in support of my fellow Americans

Not to be snarky (well, maybe just a little bit), what kind of machine are you posting this to the web on?

Kind of on this subject...are there any manufacturing engineers on this board who work for the Big 2.5? What's the real scoop on something like a headlight assembly (or the pieces within) as far as country of origin?

SpiderGearsMan · Dec 1, 2007

tower , built by me , from unknown parts , probably manufactured in singapore , I "TRY" to keep it all AMERICAN ,
at GM , they usually say on the sticker with the pn , made in USA , made in mexico , made in canada , made china - etc

danski0224 · Dec 2, 2007

Detroit Diesel Man said:
I guess I dont understand all the crticisim that Foreign tools get..aside from the obvious junk sold at HF and other places..I dont understand what the big deal is ..everybody flips out because their S.O./MAC/Craftsman stuff is made overseas...ever think about how much stuff in your shop/house is foreign made?? everything from your coffee pot to your TV/ipod/phone etc..the list is endless..its the way of the world and Global Trading..regardless of where the tool was made or manufatured...buying a tool should be based on how you use it and the warranty that comes with it...I guess it irritates me that SO/MAC/Craftsman all get bad raps from people just because a majority of their tools are manufatured over seas..yes we could use the employment here..but then that 19.99 set of Craftsman pliers would cost you 99.99..personally I dont care where the tools are made as long as they work and if they fail I get them replaced with no hassle...thats why I buy the S.O. Tools I buy..not neccesarily because they are S.O but their service for me is second to none. Rant over.

DDM

I think the driving force behind outsourcing is greed.

It sure seems that the majority of things (durable goods) made in China or Mexico could be made in the USA for the same retail price.

Problem is, the wholesale would be much higher, therefore, less profit for the retailer.

Maytag and Carrier have moved production to Mexico and China, yet the retail price is the same as US made products just a couple of years ago. The $199 retail Chinese made faucet at the big box store in the flashy packaging has a wholesale of $49.00.

I bet Old Navy could have those $49.99 Chinese jeans made in the USA, but they won't be making $40.00 on each pair.

A company just released a universal battery charging system, and the 4 port model has a $499 retail and a street price of $299. Of course, it is made in China. I find it hard to believe that it couldn't be USA made and sold at a profit at those price points.

Then there are the other little things like the wages and working conditions at those foreign factories and the lack of environmental concerns.

So much stuff made in China and Mexico just can't be a good thing.

wilbilt · Dec 2, 2007

It's a shame that corporate greed and consumer indifference have led us down this road. It seems it has become impossible to manufacture anything in this country and remain competitive.

When a big-ticket item can be manufactured offshore, packaged, shipped, delivered and retailed here for less than the cost of it's US counterpart, something is wrong.

I know a guy who was a machinist. He was laid off when the company shut down teir local manufacturing plant and moved to China. One of the things they had done shortly before the closure was to painstakingly document all of their processes and procedures to achieve ISO certification.

Looking back, he says that what they had done was pave they way for anyone to be able to do their jobs and produce their product. They had created an instruction manual for the entire manufacturing operation, so that the processes could be accomplished by unskilled labor.

Sickening.

danski0224 · Dec 2, 2007

wilbilt said:
It's a shame that corporate greed and consumer indifference have led us down this road. It seems it has become impossible to manufacture anything in this country and remain competitive.

When a big-ticket item can be manufactured offshore, packaged, shipped, delivered and retailed here for less than the cost of it's US counterpart, something is wrong.

The manufacturing processes to make a given widget in a modern facility located in China, Mexico or the United States are pretty much the same.

The only major controllable variables are labor, benefit and environmental costs.

It seems that Americans want good paying jobs with benefits, and we want corporations to be good environmental stewards, yet the majority of us choose to buy products from manufacturers and stores that abhore those virtues.

Strange place we live in.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 2, 2007

If it was just about wages, how do the Germans pull off their trade situation?

danski0224 · Dec 2, 2007

ColdDuckTime said:
If it was just about wages, how do the Germans pull off their trade situation?

What is their trade situation?

ColdDuckTime · Dec 2, 2007

From wikipedia:

In 2003 Germany imported US$601.4 billion of merchandise, while imports of goods and services totalled US$773.4 billion.
In 2003 Germany exported US$748.4 billion of merchandise, while exports of goods and services totalled US$873.3 billion.

I'll hunt around for a full table....those guys do have a darned high public debt, though. Typical problems in the West of aging population, lotsa social services, etc.

MarkH · Dec 2, 2007

Usually cussing out poorly made imported junk for people who stay with us.

There are items that should be made in every country of the world for a global advantage, what fries me is when I see them made other places. We do import many items mainly ones that could be made in more automated factories with local resources. That is why for the same quality even at lower wages we pay more or at best equal for the same item.

It does not always save. I started noticing in the last 9 months some more of these items back on the shelves with made here on them. At a lower cost than the import.

IDASHO · Dec 2, 2007

SpiderGearsMan said:
most of my snap on tools are made in usa , as are my red wing shoes , my 95% us content chevrolet , my 20 year old zenith tv ... I search US made only , in support of my fellow Americans

Sorry to disappoint, but many Red Wing boots/shoes are now either completely made in China, or assembled in the USA with foreign materials.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 2, 2007

MarkH said:
We do import many items mainly ones that could be made in more automated factories with local resources.

That's the thing I really called wrong in the last 20 years or so. Not only does it seem that people make good industrial robots, but that it makes sense to break manufacturing up into smaller and smaller bits and ship subassemblies all over hell and back. Amazing.

I suppose that some of the realities of this will change when $200/bbl oil hits, but by that time, the US will have lost the recipes for everything from drill bits to hard drives.

I think the only answer is to do a cash out mortgage and buy me a big screen TV.

danski0224 · Dec 2, 2007

ColdDuckTime said:
From wikipedia:

In 2003 Germany imported US$601.4 billion of merchandise, while imports of goods and services totalled US$773.4 billion.
In 2003 Germany exported US$748.4 billion of merchandise, while exports of goods and services totalled US$873.3 billion.

I'll hunt around for a full table....those guys do have a darned high public debt, though. Typical problems in the West of aging population, lotsa social services, etc.

So, if I am reading the figures right, in 2003 Germany exported more stuff than they imported?

russlaferrera · Dec 2, 2007

Every major company now has some of their products made off shore. When you are willing to pay the going price for a product that is made in the USA it should be made in the USE, not made to USA specs.

I would love to pay in counterfeit money made to USA standers. That would be a fair trade. Yes?

Kurn · Dec 2, 2007

In a lot of industries,the US infrastructure just isn't there anymore.Plants and shops closed and were shipped lock,stock,and barrel overseas,and I don't think most of 'em will be back.

IDASHO · Dec 2, 2007

And why would they?

Every American thinks that minimum wage should be $10/hr.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 2, 2007

danski0224 said:
So, if I am reading the figures right, in 2003 Germany exported more stuff than they imported?

Why, yes...so far as I can tell. And mind you, that's with a quite high labor rate and beaucoup environmental laws. Go figure....I guess that it shows that it's possible to be an industrial powerhouse and not all live in shantytowns.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 2, 2007

russlaferrera said:
I would love to pay in counterfeit money made to USA standers. That would be a fair trade. Yes?

Given the inflation rate that the US government has cooked up post WWII, I'm afraid it's already happening in a sense.

krusty the clown · Dec 2, 2007

IDASHO said:
And why would they?

Every American thinks that minimum wage should be $10/hr.

i can't live on that can you?

Major Ramifications · Dec 2, 2007

You are not SUPPOSED to be able to comfortably support yourself on minimum wage. That's why it is called the MINIMUM wage. It is a starting point for a young person with no experience who is doing a job that any human can do. The incentive would then be to work hard, gain skills and educate yourself so that you will never again be worth only minimum wage.
The problem is that some "people" are too lazy to make themselves any more valuable to employers, and spend their whole life on minimum wage, so they think that everyone else owes them a decent living.
Anybody else can donate as much of their money to help out the poor and lazy, but I don't owe them anything.

IDASHO · Dec 2, 2007

Precisely.

In general the average Joe American is too damn lazy/lacks initiative/has lousy work ethics/whatever to promote any kind of real advancement in either work status or pay.

Hell, in the past 10 years or so Ive worked at two different places (would have been 1 if I had decided not to move 3 states away), and within the first 2 years at both places I went from an off the street/no experience employee to management, in each case increasing my pay by more than 3x. Not because I knew what was going on (although I did) but because I have good work ethics, and I stuck around for longer than 6 months.

I honestly dont know how so many people can float from job to job. I couldnt do it. I need something steady.

eschoendorff · Dec 2, 2007

Major Ramifications said:
You are not SUPPOSED to be able to comfortably support yourself on minimum wage. That's why it is called the MINIMUM wage. It is a starting point for a young person with no experience who is doing a job that any human can do. The incentive would then be to work hard, gain skills and educate yourself so that you will never again be worth only minimum wage.
The problem is that some "people" are too lazy to make themselves any more valuable to employers, and spend their whole life on minimum wage, so they think that everyone else owes them a decent living.
Anybody else can donate as much of their money to help out the poor and lazy, but I don't owe them anything.

The flip side of that coin is are the people who genuinely work hard and get screwed over by politics in the workplace. I just had that conversation with a cousin of mine today. Doing good, honest work will no longer get you ahead.

kartracer55 · Dec 2, 2007

Major Ramifications said:
You are not SUPPOSED to be able to comfortably support yourself on minimum wage. That's why it is called the MINIMUM wage. It is a starting point for a young person with no experience who is doing a job that any human can do. The incentive would then be to work hard, gain skills and educate yourself so that you will never again be worth only minimum wage.
The problem is that some "people" are too lazy to make themselves any more valuable to employers, and spend their whole life on minimum wage, so they think that everyone else owes them a decent living.
Anybody else can donate as much of their money to help out the poor and lazy, but I don't owe them anything.

This is true to a certain extent. The idea behind a minimum wage is that it is supposed to be a minimum at which an adult can support themselves. The fact is, you cant. Its 7.15 here in Jersey and that works out to 286$/ 40hr week BEFORE tax. You simply can not survive on that around here. BUT, you also run into a situation where an employer can not afford to pay more than a minimum wage. I get payed a good bit more than minimum, but I know of another kid working at a shop that only gets minimum, because the shop generates so little revenue due to terrible management.

It swings both ways.

Sinplicity · Dec 2, 2007

People in this country want to make $30 an hour, but they don't want to pay anyone else a decent wage. I work hard for my money and I expect to be paid accordingly. I also expect a lot from the products I spend my hard earned money on and I don't mind paying for QUALITY, which 99.9% of the time means MADE IN AMERICA. Something else to keep in mind when you buy the latest made in China BS... you just raised your taxes by putting an AMERICAN company, who pays taxes on their income, out of business. It's not enough to buy Made in America; you need to buy American made products produced by American owned companies. If you can't find an American owned company producing an American made product at least be sure the tax dollars will stay in this country. Proud Americans Buy American. Spend It Where You Earned It!

danski0224 · Dec 3, 2007

Sinplicity said:
People in this country want to make $30 an hour, but they don't want to pay anyone else a decent wage. I work hard for my money and I expect to be paid accordingly. I also expect a lot from the products I spend my hard earned money on and I don't mind paying for QUALITY, which 99.9% of the time means MADE IN AMERICA. Something else to keep in mind when you buy the latest made in China BS... you just raised your taxes by putting an AMERICAN company, who pays taxes on their income, out of business. It's not enough to buy Made in America; you need to buy American made products produced by American owned companies. If you can't find an American owned company producing an American made product at least be sure the tax dollars will stay in this country. Proud Americans Buy American. Spend It Where You Earned It!

The largest companies in the USA pay little or no income taxes.

Municipalities give huge tax incentives to get businesses to locate within their borders. The tax monies given up with those incentives are made up somewhere- high property taxes is the most common place. Business burdens placed upon the homeowners.

The majority of the income and property tax base is supported by the eroding "middle class".

Companies that pay less than a "living wage" have employees that use public funding to make ends meet- taxes paid by those in the middle class, not the businesses.

keywestjack · Dec 3, 2007

krusty the clown said:
american cars, american motorcycles, american whiskey and american tools........nuff said.

AMERICA FIRST!

SpiderGearsMan · Dec 3, 2007

and remember that the boss is taller than you , makes it easier to kiss his ****

IDASHO · Dec 3, 2007

kartracer55 said:
This is true to a certain extent. The idea behind a minimum wage is that it is supposed to be a minimum at which an adult can support themselves. The fact is, you cant. Its 7.15 here in Jersey and that works out to 286$/ 40hr week BEFORE tax. You simply can not survive on that around here.

BS.

You might not be able to afford the fancy house or ski boat, but you CAN afford to live off minimum wage. Millions of people do it across the US.

Keep a close tabs on your monthly expenses? I do. And more than 60% of it is stuff that I could easily do without if money was tight. Things like Internet/TV/phone services, remodel projects to the house, BUILDING A GARAGE, fuel expenses for the cars, etc, etc... The other $40 goes directly to food and basic living expenses.

Hell, here in Idaho the minimum wage is still at the federal level.... Thats $5.85/hr Yet people find ways to make it happen. They find a way to make it happen, because they have to support themselves.

wrenchr · Dec 3, 2007

Minimum wage is no extra's, no frills, just the basic's. Unless you are just starting out and still living with the folks.

ColdDuckTime · Dec 3, 2007

danski0224 said:
The largest companies in the USA pay little or no income taxes.

.

You know, in an ideal world they would pay no taxes at all. The thing is that, like some big stupid animal, an ideal corporation takes money in one end in exchange for stuff, and excretes the profits to the share holders...and so doesn't really ever retain profits.

I suppose that it's a side effect of current tax laws, favoring capital gains (ie. speculative bidding on stocks) over dividends that leads to companies not sending through the money as before. It's not dissimilar to the odd side effect of the mortgage write-off..what started as a way to encourage home ownership really, in the final analysis, just caused home prices to notch up a bit due to the tax benefits.

The Laws of Unintended Consequences rule our lives.

...as far as thrift is concerned, Good Lord, just look at the changes in the last fifty years....

. People get divorced at the drop of a hat (if he leaves his socks on the floor *one* more time!!!), with the side effect of blowing up a family's financial reality, single parent households, the loss of multi-generation households (and all that means for retirement), etc.

. I can't prove this off hand, but it seems like people are far more likely to work for others, especially big others, than they used to be. Not just the enormous lump of humanity that is umbilically attached to the government, but the disappearance of family grocery stores, farms, distributorships, restaurants (would you like fries with that?)...etc. You can argue that it's darned hard to be a real adult without experiencing a)parenthood and b)self-employment.

. Complete and utter dependence on the automobile. Once your housing is taken care of (hopefully by outright ownership of something you can actually afford), it's the car that seems to **** up the bucks. If you had told me 30 years ago how far people would regularly drive to work in the future (and not in aircars) there's no way I could have believed in the silliness of the notion. Instead, we've been treated to a couple of decades of metastasizing suburbs/strip malls. It looks like the jive economy has had a bit of a stall in the housing market lately, but it will take a bigger change than a drop off in new construction to change transportation patterns.

So... can people live on minimum wage? I suppose so, they just don't get to live like modern Americans.

IanF · Dec 3, 2007

IDASHO said:
BS.

You might not be able to afford the fancy house or ski boat, but you CAN afford to live off minimum wage. Millions of people do it across the US.

No... not in NJ, the cost of living here is simply insane... a couple (DINK) might be able to get by on minimum wage ... but they would need help.... and unfortunately, few in this situation are DINKs...

I have been in a low-pay situation... not fun... but I was/am more fortunate than most and through some amount of hard work and no small amount of luck with being in the right place at the right time, I'm in a much better position now. Even still, I live in PA and work in NJ. I could not afford to live near where I work.

But I still remember where I came from.

ColdDuckTime said:
If you had told me 30 years ago how far people would regularly drive to work in the future (and not in aircars) there's no way I could have believed in the silliness of the notion. Instead, we've been treated to a couple of decades of metastasizing suburbs/strip malls. It looks like the jive economy has had a bit of a stall in the housing market lately, but it will take a bigger change than a drop off in new construction to change transportation patterns.

As I sit here writing this on a computer about 50 miles from my house, I agree with you...

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