Asbestos tile removal - Epoxy after/tile after?

Stefan S · Jan 13, 2012

I am having Vinyl asbestos tiles removed from my home as well as the accompanying asbests containing mastic used to fasten the tiles. One of the companies performing the work has recomended a citrus based product to remove the mastic.

I am concerned that the product used to remove the glue will soak into the concrete (very high PSI concrete) and despite the processes used to remove will create an adverse chemical reaction with the Epoxy.

Is this a legitimate concern or should I just diamond grind, etch with muriatic acid rinse and call it good?

Thanks in advance!

theoldwizard1 · Jan 13, 2012

Stefan S said:
Is this a legitimate concern or should I just diamond grind, etch with muriatic acid, rinse and call it good?

The mastic (likely black "cut back" adhesive) probably does not contain asbestos.

That being said, it is a B!TCH get it off. Your last proposal was the best. More expensive and it creates a lot of dust, but I'm certain you will like the end results,

Stefan S · Jan 13, 2012

theoldwizard1 said:
The mastic (likely black "cut back" adhesive) probably does not contain asbestos.

That being said, it is a B!TCH get it off. Your last proposal was the best. More expensive and it creates a lot of dust, but I'm certain you will like the end results,

Thank you for your reply!

I had both the tile and cut back adhesive tested. Tile was 5% asbestos and the mastic contained 10% asbestos. I am not an expert but I was told by the lab performing the test that the adhesive is just as likely to contain asbestos as the tiles so I would respectfully disagree with your first statement. The test cost me $45 bucks for both samples so well worth it in my opinion.

I'm hiring a licensed contractor to perform the asbestos removal work and he said that he has seen excellent results with the citrus product he is using so I am not that concerned with the amount of work. My main concern is the condition of the floor after the citrus remover has been used. Will it soak into the concrete and make epoxy challenging?

Gregishome · Jan 13, 2012

I am sure you know not to grind anything that has asbestos in it, as it makes it airborne. I had the same tile in my utility room. The commercial floor company that I bought my new VCT from sold me a gallon of solution that is just for removing the black mastic....

It is a mess to remove with the solution, it takes rubber gloves and LOTS of old rags, but it will come up as the solution liquifies the mastic. I asked the tile vendor would the solution soak in the concrete and hurt my new VCT mastic, he said no. My new VCT stuck fine with the VCT adhesive, and is still tight after 3 years.

jdaallen · Jan 13, 2012

First off, I've been in the Asbestos Abatement and Training business for 27 years, so conifendt of what I speak.

The Mastic most probably IS asbestos. Most asphaltic based mastics do contain asbestos manufactured into the '80s.

As far as the remover, we prefer the soy based solvents. They work about the same or better than citris without the odor. Citris will leave a very strong citris order that sometimes is hard to neutralize. Most Hospital and Schools in our market have banned citris products because of the odor and high flashpoint. Soy products work very well and clean up with soap and water. We use a product called Bean-E-Doo http://www.franmar.com/mastic_remover_data.html Then use the normal prep procedures required for epoxy.

Good Luck!!

Stefan S · Jan 13, 2012

jdaallen said:
First off, I've been in the Asbestos Abatement and Training business for 27 years, so conifendt of what I speak.

The Mastic most probably IS asbestos. Most asphaltic based mastics do contain asbestos manufactured into the '80s.

As far as the remover, we prefer the soy based solvents. They work about the same or better than citris without the odor. Citris will leave a very strong citris order that sometimes is hard to neutralize. Most Hospital and Schools in our market have banned citris products because of the odor and high flashpoint. Soy products work very well and clean up with soap and water. We use a product called Bean-E-Doo http://www.franmar.com/mastic_remover_data.html Then use the normal prep procedures required for epoxy.

Good Luck!!

Thank you very much! I will direct my contractor to the Franmar product and see what his thoughts are

theoldwizard1 · Jan 13, 2012

I forgot to say, I did NOT grind but used special adhesive remover, 2 coats. After etching and rinsing I DID epoxy. So far so good (laundry/furnace room).

Resurfacer · Jan 13, 2012

I am not a certified asbestos abatement contractor, but I have factory training from Ardex Engineered cements. I will share the information I received on the removal of cutback adhesive
cutback adhesive over concrete

Asphalt-based cutback adhesives remaining on the floor after removing old vinyl tile and other flooring represents one of the most difficult and risky substrates for the installation of new flooring. Bleed-threw of the cutback adhesive residue can adversely affect the new adhesive and floor covering being installed.

Complete mechanical removal of cutback(i.e. grinding, sanding, blasting) can be hazardous, as old cutback adhesive may contain asbestos.DO NOT SAND OR GRIND ADHESIVE RESIDUE. HARMFUL DUST MAY RESULT Inhalation of asbestos dust may cause asbestosis or other serious bodily harm.

Please consult the adhesive manufacture for rules and regulations concerning thr removal of flooring and adhesives that contain asbestos.

Floor covering manufactures, the resilient floor covering institute, and ASTM F710 specifically recommend against the use of solvents and adhesive removers to treat adhesive coated substrates.Residues from there use have been sited as contributing to numerous floor covering failures.

Specific Ardex underlayments can be installed over a thin layer of cutback or other non-water-soluble adhesive residue. Since the weakest link in the system will be the bond of the adhesive`to the substrate, it is important that the adhesive be very thin, firm and have a good bond to the substrate.

Thick accumulations, powdery, brittle or otherwise weak adhesive layers must be removed, but only with extreme caution. Use the wet-scraping method as outlined in the resilient floor covering institute's "Recommended Work Procedures for resilient floor coverings" to remove thick areas that are weak and not well-bonded to the substrate. The remaining residue should appear to be nothing more than a transparent stain on the concrete. Wet mop the substrate to remove all debris and loose material.

I would be very skeptical to apply an Epoxy over cutback as an Epoxy overlay would need the concrete substrate to be sufficiently profiled.

If you want Epoxy as a finish floor the project needs to be done right. The asbestos abatement contractor is not concerned, and probable is not knowledgeable with the procedures required to bond the Epoxy to an adhesive covered concrete substrate.

If you do not want to deal with chipping, pitting and delaminating Epoxy. There is a way.
I would recommend a self leveling concrete overlay. Specifically an overlay designed to be installed over asbestos tile. No tile removal from a very expensive asbestos abatement contractor. No dangerous dust to deal with. Install finished floor covering in just hours. Ardex K15 would work as an underlayment over properly prepared adhesive residue. Want more information on Ardex self leveling underlayments, please visit this website. http://www.signature-concrete-stain.com/ardex.html.
Ardex LU 100 would be the product to install over VCT The product can be viewed at here. http://www.ardex.com/cms\Assets\Products\Documentation\ard-lu100-tech-us-e.pdf

Stefan S · Jan 13, 2012

Resurfacer said:
I would recommend a self leveling concrete overlay. Specifically an overlay designed to be installed over asbestos tile. No tile removal from a very expensive asbestos abatement contractor. No dangerous dust to deal with. Install finished floor covering in just hours. Ardex K15 would work as an underlayment over properly prepared adhesive residue. Want more information on Ardex self leveling underlayments, please visit this website. http://www.signature-concrete-stain.com/ardex.html.
Ardex LU 100 would be the product to install over VCT The product can be viewed at here. http://www.ardex.com/cms\Assets\Products\Documentation\ard-lu100-tech-us-e.pdf

Removing the tile and Mastic is only going to cost $1000 bucks so it isn't too bad. If an overlay was done how thick would it need to be and what type of contractor would do that kind of work?

theoldwizard1 · Jan 14, 2012

I used Sentinel 747.

Apply to a small area (4x4 or smaller). Let sit for the prescribed time and wipe up with blue paper shop towels. I had to do the whole floor twice. Wash with soap and water. Etched and rinsed.

I let it dry overnight before applying the epoxy.

jdaallen · Jan 14, 2012

Resurfacer said:
I am not a certified asbestos abatement contractor, but I have factory training from Ardex Engineered cements. I will share the information I received on the removal of cutback adhesive
cutback adhesive over concrete

Asphalt-based cutback adhesives remaining on the floor after removing old vinyl tile and other flooring represents one of the most difficult and risky substrates for the installation of new flooring. Bleed-threw of the cutback adhesive residue can adversely affect the new adhesive and floor covering being installed.

Complete mechanical removal of cutback(i.e. grinding, sanding, blasting) can be hazardous, as old cutback adhesive may contain asbestos.DO NOT SAND OR GRIND ADHESIVE RESIDUE. HARMFUL DUST MAY RESULT Inhalation of asbestos dust may cause asbestosis or other serious bodily harm.

Please consult the adhesive manufacture for rules and regulations concerning thr removal of flooring and adhesives that contain asbestos.

Floor covering manufactures, the resilient floor covering institute, and ASTM F710 specifically recommend against the use of solvents and adhesive removers to treat adhesive coated substrates.Residues from there use have been sited as contributing to numerous floor covering failures.

Specific Ardex underlayments can be installed over a thin layer of cutback or other non-water-soluble adhesive residue. Since the weakest link in the system will be the bond of the adhesive`to the substrate, it is important that the adhesive be very thin, firm and have a good bond to the substrate.

Thick accumulations, powdery, brittle or otherwise weak adhesive layers must be removed, but only with extreme caution. Use the wet-scraping method as outlined in the resilient floor covering institute's "Recommended Work Procedures for resilient floor coverings" to remove thick areas that are weak and not well-bonded to the substrate. The remaining residue should appear to be nothing more than a transparent stain on the concrete. Wet mop the substrate to remove all debris and loose material.

I would be very skeptical to apply an Epoxy over cutback as an Epoxy overlay would need the concrete substrate to be sufficiently profiled.

If you want Epoxy as a finish floor the project needs to be done right. The asbestos abatement contractor is not concerned, and probable is not knowledgeable with the procedures required to bond the Epoxy to an adhesive covered concrete substrate.

If you do not want to deal with chipping, pitting and delaminating Epoxy. There is a way.
I would recommend a self leveling concrete overlay. Specifically an overlay designed to be installed over asbestos tile. No tile removal from a very expensive asbestos abatement contractor. No dangerous dust to deal with. Install finished floor covering in just hours. Ardex K15 would work as an underlayment over properly prepared adhesive residue. Want more information on Ardex self leveling underlayments, please visit this website. http://www.signature-concrete-stain.com/ardex.html.
Ardex LU 100 would be the product to install over VCT The product can be viewed at here. http://www.ardex.com/cms\Assets\Products\Documentation\ard-lu100-tech-us-e.pdf

While everything you say is true, your advice is not complete. The Resilient Floor Covering Institute's "recomendations" do not comply withe EPA and most State Asbestos regulations. While some States were lobbied hard by the Resilient Floor Covering Institute during the creation of asbestos regulations, tile, sheet flooring and mastics removal is regulated and must be removed by trained certified workers employed by liscenced contractors.

Another issue to consider is regarding overlaying asbestos flooring. If you knowingly conseal asbestos material in a building (residential or commercial) then by law you are required to disclose that information for realestate transactions. Also as Owner of the building, you are required to notify any contractor or worker of the asbestos prior to any disturbance. These two things alone, justify the cost of total abatement rather than future management. Remember, it's pay now or pay later and it don't get cheaper later.
Tile and Mastic removal by a certified contractor should never be more than around $5 a sq. ft and depending on size of the area, may be as little as $1.75 per sq ft.

Asbestos tile removal - Epoxy after/tile after?

Stefan S

Well-known member

theoldwizard1

Well-known member

Stefan S

Well-known member

Gregishome

Well-known member

jdaallen

Well-known member

Stefan S

Well-known member

theoldwizard1

Well-known member

Resurfacer

New member

Stefan S

Well-known member

theoldwizard1

Well-known member

jdaallen

Well-known member