Boiler Problem? need help

After years of having a too small heat source for my in-floor heat I purchased a boiler to provide the proper heat for the system, even hired a heating and cooling company to do the install.Anyway heres my issue. I haven't been down to the shop for about a week as I was deep into a ceramic tile insatall in the master bath. I went down tonight and the air temp inside was only 40*.
I checked the boler and it was working and I checked the air bleeder screw and a lot of air came out.So I'm thinking theres an air lock so I shut the valve off for the loop and force the water to have to go out to the floor. I can hear it running and there is heat on the pipes going out to the floor now. The pipe going into the boiler wasn't as warm as I thought it should be but after awhile it warmed up. I did find a little puddle next to the boiler, but I'm not sure where it's coming from, when Iopened the air breather some of the water came out once the air stopped coming out.
is the boiler done for if there is a leak in it? I plan on calling the guys out to look at it again they've been very good to me and will come if I need them.(they stand by their work) I'm just looking for some type of answer if it was an air lock and how it happened.
Here are some pics of the system:

The boiler is over size for the system and runs a constant loop and will only go to the floor when it's called for. The valve on the wall is normally horzontal and the pump on the wall is for the loop. I have the valve closed in this pic to force it out to the floor.



In this pic, this is how it normally operates


This is the small puddle I find on the floor.


This is the pump and thermostat control for the floor.

Anyone have any ideas what I can look for till they show up to look at it or I can make suggestions to them of the probem.

The air release can be left open all the time, that lets the air out any time it develops. Don't see an automatic fill valve in the pics, do you have one to refill the boiler as the air release lets air out? What psi is the system at?

We need more info. How many loops in the floor, insulation under the pad? Do you have a bypass loop around the boiler? How big and how well insulated is the shop. How many BTU 's does the boiler produce?

Is that last pic of a thermostat or a relay? Both?

Give us more details and we'll go from there.

KO

I just noticed your bypass valve in the first pic. Usually that valve is only cracked. You want more circulation in and out of the boiler than the floor zone. You don't need full boiler water to the floor. You want it tempered to around 80-90 *. The idea is to keep the boiler above 140 to ensure longjevity of the boiler.

Do you have one or two pumps? My system uses 2 pumps.

I believe your biggest issue is going to be air in your system tho.

philjafo said:

The air release can be left open all the time, that lets the air out any time it develops. Don't see an automatic fill valve in the pics, do you have one to refill the boiler as the air release lets air out? What psi is the system at?

Click to expand...

yes there is a refill on the system, PSI is usually around 20 PSI

koditten said:

I just noticed your bypass valve in the first pic. Usually that valve is only cracked. You want more circulation in and out of the boiler than the floor zone. You don't need full boiler water to the floor. You want it tempered to around 80-90 *. The idea is to keep the boiler above 140 to ensure longjevity of the boiler.

Do you have one or two pumps? My system uses 2 pumps.

I believe your biggest issue is going to be air in your system tho.

Click to expand...

Yes 2 pumps, the last pic was the pump,circulation valve and thermostat, it was a complete unit I bought when I bought the system. I don't usually have the valve closed like that. I just did to make the water move through the system as the water going into the boiler semed a little too cool for me. the boiler is set to come on at 140. I have my suspicions that the valve may be part of my problem but no way to comfirm that.

koditten said:

We need more info. How many loops in the floor, insulation under the pad? Do you have a bypass loop around the boiler? How big and how well insulated is the shop. How many BTU 's does the boiler produce?

Is that last pic of a thermostat or a relay? Both?

Give us more details and we'll go from there.

KO

Click to expand...

5 250 ft loops,2" poly under and along the outside, yes a loop to keep the boiler always fed, it's suppose to only go to the floor when the thermostat calls for it. 1300 Sq Ft 11' high walls well insulated, can't remember how may BTU's off the top my head right now, high something like 200,000( the reason for the loop)

Sometimes the refill valve gets stuck and the pressure gets low, lets air into the system, pump gets air lock boiler overheats and pops the pressure relief, hard to say for certain.

I'm betting the water you found is condensation. The boiler couldn't get up to operating temp. Once we get the boiler loop making good, hot water, then we can see about getting the heated water into the floor loop.

Are your pumps on differnt relays or are they wired off the same relay? Are you sure that the boiler pump is working? These pumps are so quiet it is hard to tell. I usually use a screw driver with my ear on the end to listen.

I'm wondering if your boiler pump is on the wrong side of the spirovent/expansion bladder. It looks to me you are pushing the water thru the spirovent. If memory serves me correct, you want to pull the water thru the spirovent and feed the boiler. I'm sure the pros will correct me if I am incorrect.

This is one case where flow indicators would work wonderful. I had them installed on mine. Makes it a 100% easier to balance. If you can see the water flowing along with any air, you can narrow down problems with ease.

I'm not a pro, but I love a good mystery. Keep us posted.

KO

Well when I got up this morning I wasn't feeling thew greatest but I went down and checked how things were going. It was 50* in therer and I went and opened the air bleeder and more air came out. I decided to leave it open and when I went back down this evening there was a puddle of fluid under the air bleeder.I shouldn't be getting any fluid out of the sir bleeder should I? I'm thinking this is one of my problems. It was 60* when I went down there this evening though. Also I can hear the water moving through the system and the pumps working. I'm going to give my guy a call on Monday to stop by and take a look and see if he can see whats going on.

caper150 said:

Also I can hear the water moving through the system ..........

Click to expand...

I'm not an expert but I don't think you should be able to hear the water circulating. If you do, there's air in there.

Air bleeders are not supposed to leak water but they almost always spit some out with the air. if its not alot of water- dont worry, leave it open, once all the air is out it should not leak. The bleeders are automatic - so they should be open to the system all the time to work properly. Make sure the pressure stays fairly constant. If your in a single story, you need no more than 12 lbs for proper circulation. 15 is ok but 20 is higher than needed- back off on the pressiure redcing valve. If it fluctuates more than a few pounds you have other problems.

Your relief valve should be piped lower to the ground to be safe. you never know!

Is it an automatic air bleeder (with a float)?
I don't see it in your pics. If it is a float type, you leave the cap open and it will constantly remove air if there is any. They don't leak any water at all.
If you can hear anything other than the slight hum of the pump motor, you must have air trapped in there. Other than that, the water pipes should be pretty much dead silent. Mine was fairly noisy for a while till all the air purged.
Don

It is not an automatic Air Bleeder, I did leave it open and I had a good puddle on top of the boiler. I believe it was air locked and the bleeder just might be the cause of the problem cause now it's a nice 70* in there.

Almost all of the air bleeders are automatic, if its leaking water the seal on it has started leaking. It's a very common thing with them and I have tried taking them apart and cleaning them, but most of the time they still leak. Best to just replace it so you don't have to worry about it leaking again.

when you had the system built did your installer purge all the air from every part of the system ???

your expansion tank should be installed just downstream of your system pump to work properly .. if it's upstream you are pumping water into it, negating it's ability to maintain system pressure and absorb thermal expansion

i'm guessing that the part the expansion tank is connected to is your air bleeder ?? is it an air scoup ?? they are technologically akin to carburetors, get a proper modern air eliminator

philjafo said:

Almost all of the air bleeders are automatic, if its leaking water the seal on it has started leaking. It's a very common thing with them and I have tried taking them apart and cleaning them, but most of the time they still leak. Best to just replace it so you don't have to worry about it leaking again.

Click to expand...

If you replace it add a small ball valve under it, that way in the future you can replace it without draining the system down at all, we do this on all the replacement bleeders we install and any bleeders on new boiler installs(most of those also get a spirovent as well).

"your expansion tank should be installed just downstream of your system pump to work properly .. if it's upstream you are pumping water into it, negating it's ability to maintain system pressure and absorb thermal expansion"
I think you have it backwards! The circulating pump in a hydronic heating system should be be located at the outlet of the expansion tank. An improperly located circulating pump discharges into the expansion tank . The result is a decrease in system pressure during pumping operation. This creates an effect of additional pump pressure being added to the system pressure. Given a sufficiently high pump head in the system supply, the return pressure may become slightly negative. This can result in air being sucked into the system causing air bound loops and greatly reduced flow in much of the system piping leading to poor heating. Mechanical pump damage and rapid system deterioration because of the increased air (oxygen) attack are other potential associated troubles. http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/multimedia-library/pdf/weil-mclain-pdf/service-bulletins/SB0206.pdf