Ineffective Ridge Vent in New, Hot Garage?

steve65oh · May 21, 2013

First off... this is my first post... and I apologize profusely in advance for the very long post! I'm Steve, live in Ohio, know very little about heating and cooling, and am becoming increasingly confused over suggestions I've seen throughout the Internet concerning garage "heat removal". So what better place to search for answers to my garage problem than a garage forum?!

A little background: We moved into our house not quite a year ago. The garage is detached and only about a year old. It is just a "basic" structure, rectangular and very long. I don't have the dimensions with me, but you can get an idea by looking at the attached "artwork". The interior is unfinished with no ceiling... just rafters. There is no insulation under the roof yet, or anywhere else. The exterior is vinyl and the roof is asphalt shingle. There is continuous soffit venting around the entire perimeter of the garage, and I can see light emitting through it so it appears adequate to my "uninformed" eye. I question the ridge vent though. I'm not sure it allows enough heat to escape. There is absolutely no shade available to the garage, and it isn't likely that there ever will be. There is a garage door (single) at one end, and another (single) located diagonally at the other end. There are two entry doors on one side.

The garage is like an oven when outside temperatures begin to rise. As I said, it looks like I have plenty of soffit venting, but not enough functioning ridge venting. I know roof insulation would be beneficial, and I do plan on adding that. It's "what else needs to be done" that has me confused.

My goals: I don't have much in the way of disposable income, so adding an A/C unit is out of the question for me. I just want, if possible, to bring the temps down to almost outside temps to protect vehicles, chemicals, etc. from heat damage. Also, not passing out when entering would be good!

So far: After a lengthy thread in a car forum, I came up with a plan. I would install the insulation between the rafters, and I would install a powered attic fan near the ridge. Seemed very reasonable to me. But then I went elsewhere and read more on the subject. I discovered, and this makes total sense to me now, that an attic fan installed next to a ridge vent will simply pull exterior air from the ridge vent... the "path of least resistance"... and would do little to pull the hot air from the garage. And reading more on the subject, I saw pros and cons on just about everything I could imagine. I also read that today's attic fans available from the "big box" stores are not of the highest quality anymore.

Any plans, ideas, suggestions for a course of action are appreciated!

SO.... I apologize again for the very long post! Thank you to everyone who waded through it, and I appreciate any input you may have!

Steve

Geeker · May 21, 2013

The lack of a ceiling is an issue. A ridge vent evacuates warmer air from the attic as it rises by drawing in cooler air from the soffit venting. If you do not have a ceiling to create an insulated space in the attic, it won't work as intended.

xtremek · May 21, 2013

Hey Steve, I don't have a decent solution, but I can tell you what my first step was. Like you, I have next to no disposable income. I bought so heavy plastic, and using little carboard squares, stapled it to the under side of the rafters. As I can afford it, I'll slowly replace the plastic with insulation. But having some kind of forced air movement sound like a good idea. These guys here will give you solid advice.

Spudland_Dave · May 21, 2013

Geeker said:
The lack of a ceiling is an issue. A ridge vent evacuates warmer air from the attic as it rises by drawing in cooler air from the soffit venting. If you do not have a ceiling to create an insulated space in the attic, it won't work as intended.

Bingo.
I can tell you that I noticed literally overnight the day we installed the cieling sheetrock the difference. Attic is cooler, and the working/living space below is much more regulated in temps...cooler by day, warmer at night. :thumbup:

aka Larry · May 21, 2013

Related, and sorry to hijack your thread, but I have a ridge vent -and- attic fan. Is the attic fan not necessary? Is it doing more harm than good?

microcraft · May 21, 2013

steve65oh said:
I also read that today's attic fans available from the "big box" stores are not of the highest quality anymore.

Steve

Yep - I had the thermostatically controlled switch go on my attic fan in the middle of the summer just after 8 months. went to Grainger, bought another thermo-switch and it is still running 10 years later.

bczygan · May 21, 2013

First thing I would do is PLANT SOME TREES!!!

Make them trees that have a wide crown. Plant them far enough away that the roots won't disturb the slab, but slose enough that they will eventually shade the structure. Get the biggest ones you can afford and plant them NOW! Payback will be great in a few years.

What color is your roof? Dark shingles soak up heat. When you re-roof, use light colored ones.

Use a reflective thermal heat barrier on the underside of the roof deck.

Even if you don't drywall the ceiling yet, install unfaced batt insulation and cover with Visqueen vapor barrier. Tape the joints. Don't forget Prop-a-vents.

Plant evergreen shrubs along the outside walls, especially on the warm side, but also on the cold side, for winter warmth.

Consider a powered roof ventilator.

Install roof mounted solar and/or hot water, and use that sunlight.

Plant more trees on your lot. You can use them as a source of cooler air to pull into your space, while you exhaust the warmer air. My lot is completely covered with trees, even on the berm between curb and sidewalk. It creates a 15 degree cooler layer of air under them, that I can pull into the house, garage or shop with fans.

Add more thermal mass to your structure with masonry. It acts as a heat sink and stores thermal energy. With the right amount, the transfer time approaches a 12 hour cycle. Your daytime heat transfers into the space in time for nighttime heating. Your daytime temps are kept lower because the thermal mass soaks up the daytime heat before it gets inside and delays it's entry. My brick home, with the shade produced by trees does this very well. Add a dehumidifier to keep the air dry and a fan for movement and you have moderated the conditions greatly.

Consider a chimney. A shaft really, where you can exhaust the hot air from your space by natural convection. A working cupola can be decorative as well as functional in this regard. It requires a source of cooler air to replace the exhausted air though. Another reason to plant lots of trees.

Finally, you need to finish by insulating walls and sealing the structure. What all these things do is to handle and modify the air. An air conditioner or in ground heat pump can tweak things and even provide heat in the winter. But the basics of air handling are things our grandparents used long before electric powered air conditioning.

rsanter · May 21, 2013

You can tack up wome of that foil covered paper radiant barrier to enclose a flue from the ridge vent to the softly vent. This will help them create the convection current you need to help keep some heat out of the structure.
For the walls you can start by putting some fiberglass insulation on the west and south walls first

Bob

pattenp · May 21, 2013

A power vent/roof fan is not to be used with a ridge vent system. If defeats the convection purpose of the ridge vent. There is a lot of thought that power vents are bad and can cause negative pressure in the house and actually pull out air in the house causing higher cooling cost.

aka Larry said:
Related, and sorry to hijack your thread, but I have a ridge vent -and- attic fan. Is the attic fan not necessary? Is it doing more harm than good?

bczygan · May 21, 2013

pattenp said:
A power vent/roof fan is not to be used with a ridge vent system. If defeats the convection purpose of the ridge vent. There is a lot of thought that power vents are bad and can cause negative pressure in the house and actually pull out air in the house causing higher cooling cost.

True when you have an operating system. Right now he just has a hothouse with no air movement and no insulated space. A powered fan, even a temporary one set in an open door or window, up high, can at least exhaust some of the super heated air and allow cooler air down near the ground to replace it. But there is no way around it. To make changes, he will have to spend money and do work.

He can't move hot air from the occupied space until he seals it and insulates it from the attic system. Right now, the entire garage is an attic space. Once separated, then the attic system will begin to work. And then he will have control, and can modify the air in the occupied space by exhausting it or conditioning it.

steve65oh · May 21, 2013

Thank you for all the great information!

I found this radiant barrier material at the Lowe's website http://www.lowes.com/pd_219377-5629...L=?Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&facetInfo=, and I read the installation instructions. Sounds easy and perhaps a good start. I would staple the material perpendicular to the rafters, using manageable lengths. I would run it up from the soffit to (but not covering!) the ridge vent. Then after that is installed (but it could be a while, due to finances!), I'd install a simple ceiling. Does that sound reasonable for a start? Also, at least when we're home, I'd leave the entry doors at both ends open on hot days.

I appreciate and understand the suggestion regarding shade trees. However, my garage butts right up to a public alley (no room for any trees or bushes) and the opposite side (our "lawn") is a very narrow space where there also would be no room for trees! (Very narrow, small city lot!)

I read some very good reviews regarding the barrier material. It sounds like it would make a big difference. Please let me know if I'm off base or missing something (I usually am).

Thanks!!

Steve

CNGsaves · May 21, 2013

Show us what you're starting with . . . . pics of garage interior would help.

:needpics:

steve65oh · May 21, 2013

CNGsaves said:
Show us what you're starting with . . . . pics of garage interior would help.

Understood, and I agree... pics always help me out! I'll get some pics uploaded tonight. Won't be pretty!

Thanks!

Steve

tylernt · May 21, 2013

steve65oh said:
I would install the insulation between the rafters,

You've already been given good advice by others in this thread, but I thought I would call this out. There are a few situations where insulating rafter bays is appropriate, such spray-foaming an attic being used as living space in a home. Otherwise, it's almost always the wrong thing to do, because it defeats the soffit-to-ridge "chimney effect".

steve65oh · May 21, 2013

I'm confused (as usual). Is radiant barrier the wrong thing to do? As promised, here are pictures of my glorious garage! LOL

Thanks...

Steve

steve65oh · May 21, 2013

Sorry. Another question. Does that ridge vent look right? I don't see much of an opening.

Thanks...

Steve

SwerveDriver · May 21, 2013

Cool garage. I can't tell what kind of ridge vent you have up top- maybe some kinds of roll ridge vent (looks like corragated cardboard made of plastic)?At any rate, a reasonable attempt was made on the ridge and soffit so that is a plus.

I would avoid the radiant barrier and instead drywall the ceiling to create attic space. As time/money allow, you could lay insulation down in the attic.
Creating a barrier between the attic and working space (even just taped/painted drywall) will help keep the heat away from the working area and promote air flow from soffit to ridge vent. This would help the building hold some heat in the winter as well.

It sounds like the walls are just studs, so insulation/drywall on the walls would be next on my list- southern exposure walls at least.

Garage doors on more than one face of the build are an advantage as well- raising one slightly and opening the other will move a lot of air through the building- but I am sure when you first enter the building on a hot day it is stifling. A proper ceiling and later insulation will help a lot.

Best-
S-D

tylernt · May 21, 2013

Nothing wrong with that ridge vent. I have that on my house, works great. I think what you're lacking is an separate attic space for soffit-to-ridge convection to occur.

Even if uninsulated, an air barrier will do wonders to keep the space below an attic cooler.

CNGsaves · May 21, 2013

Nothing wrong with your garage . . . hey, it's NICE !!! The ridge vents look just fine, and soffit vents are nicely done.

You're at that stage when incremental investments will need made for you to close it in. Thus, you won't be at mercy of mother nature!

Here's my recommendation of your expenditures, in order:
a) Frame in attic access (either plain door, or attic ladder - w/ insulation)
b) Rough electrical for lighting in ceiling
(low cost would be plain boxes with porcelin / CFL - - see Veno GJ thread)
c) Sheetrock and insulate ceiling (keep air gap at soffit for air flow up)
d) If installing natural gas hanging heater, would be good time after just that little section of ceiling was sheetrocked (heck, go ahead and even paint sheetrock before heater installed)
This will allow easy acess to cut hole in roof for vent pipe.
e) Rough electrical for walls
f) Insulate walls
g) Sheetrock walls

Between steps (e) and (f), use Sketch-Up free software for layout that might even include airline system (copper or black pipe steel) within the walls, or surface mounted so you'll know where you want airline drops, electrical for compressor/welder, etc.

Then paint color, scheme, and lastly floor. Wowsaa . . . . sound like fun way so spend bunch of money???

Oh yeah, throw in fact that you might have to plan in a lift !! Your garage has great layout that the single-car end would be great w/ lift !! :rocker:

Good luck and enjoy making garage exactly how you want it.

steve65oh · May 21, 2013

Thanks so much guys! I've had so many different plans over the last week or so! LOL. It feels good to have a final one nailed down!

First order of business, I'll install the ceiling. It should be a very straightforward job since it's a new build and I only have a few light fixtures to work around. After that (exactly when depends on available finances... first grandchild due in September!), I'll lay down the insulation. I'll keep the doors cracked open when I'm home. My wife said she'd like a window in it.... I suppose that would help as well. Finished walls will probably have to wait a year.

Again... thank you! I knew I had come to the right place! :beer:

Steve

VWPORSCHEGT3 · May 23, 2013

whats the humidity like there? if its not bad i would recommend a Swamp cooler (save your pennies should only be about 3 to 400 bucks for the cooler and install in a window!) but when it comes to venting ridge venting maybe?

tylernt · May 24, 2013

VWPORSCHEGT3 said:
whats the humidity like there? if its not bad i would recommend a Swamp cooler

I love swamp coolers. Let's see, July-August in Ohio averages an afternoon humidity of about 55%. Swamp cooler would only drop about 9°F in those conditions, climate's a little on the humid side.

But I guess 9°F below ambient is better than 10 or 20° above ambient...

Falcon67 · May 24, 2013

steve65oh said:
I found this radiant barrier material at the Lowe's website http://www.lowes.com/pd_219377-56291-RB48125_4294858104__?productId=3024981&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1&facetInfo=, and I read the installation instructions. Sounds easy and perhaps a good start. I would staple the material perpendicular to the rafters, using manageable lengths. I would run it up from the soffit to (but not covering!) the ridge vent. Then after that is installed (but it could be a while, due to finances!), I'd install a simple ceiling. Does that sound reasonable for a start? Also, at least when we're home, I'd leave the entry doors at both ends open on hot days.

Yes, if you can afford it install the radiant barrier before you do a ceiling. It'll be 100x easier to do. Insulation, air infiltration/control and radiant barrier are the three things that make or break energy use. Those three have the most bang-for-buck when you are trying to manage an internal environment space. Does not matter how the building is used - those items work and pay back.

cabranch47 · May 24, 2013

Hi,
You mentioned that you have decided that installing the ceiling would be first thing to do and simple since there are only a few light fixtures to work around. I would stongly suggest that you first install the wiring and boxes for more light fixtures in the future. You will find that you never have enough light in your shop. Just my thoughts drawing from experience.

JakeKohl · May 24, 2013

There is a lot of bad information about there - a ridge vent isn't actually the best way to handle heat in an attic space. You won't see them in Florida for this reason. It does a good job at controlling moisture and keeping some air moving through the attic but under heavy heat load you need an active ventilation system to bring temps down in the attic space.

Now, that said, you are dealing with two different types of heat from your roof. Convective and radiant. Convective is the air that is heated from contact with the hot roof sheathing. This air generally rises and goes out your ridge vent (yay!). The biggest thing affecting you right now is radiant heat - quite literally, this is heat radiates from the roof sheathing to the next surface it sees (like light). This effect is what is making the space really uncomfortable and I bet if you walk into that space, it feels like being out in the sun from the heat radiating from the sheathing.

Your ridge vent is adequate in your climate to manage the heat load in the attic - but the lack of a ceiling in your garage is what is really causing the heat to climb in the lower portion and you need a ceiling first and foremost. That will slow down the radiant heat from getting to your living area in the garage but it won't stop it. Eventually your ceiling will get hot and continue to convect/radiate into the room. A radiant barrier alone will also help and while it will manage the radiant heat better, it won't do much to stop the convective heat. A pile of insulation in the attic on top of a ceiling structure (OSB or drywall) is really what you need. The upper layers of the insulation absorb the radiant heat and the lower layers help prevent the convective heat from reaching your ceiling substrate. To take it to the extreme, normal insulation in the attic covered by a radiant barrier will take care of both types of heat transmission extremely efficiently.

Remember, though, if you do intend to do a radiant barrier - if you insulate on top of it, the radiant barrier will not be very effective. The radiant barrier needs to be closest to the heat source of all the insulations to reflect the radiant heat before it can warm whatever is under it.

So - start with a ceiling of some sort - then add insulation as your budget permits. You'll be comfortable in no time.

tylernt · May 24, 2013

JakeKohl said:
a ridge vent isn't actually the best way to handle heat in an attic space. You won't see them in Florida for this reason. ... under heavy heat load you need an active ventilation system to bring temps down in the attic space.

IMO attic fans are nothing but electricity wasters... even in Florida:

There is however, a growing list of research, computer modeling and field data that indicates powered attic ventilation can be a detriment to health and safety and actually increase cooling costs. The latest and most compelling findings by Natural Florida Retrofit and the AEC Applied Building Science Center found that in all the homes they studied, powered attic ventilators (PAVs) offered no benefits and sometimes caused serious health and safety problems. The attached diagram shows just how PAVs unintentionally effect the house during operation. Their research found three reasons why PAVs are not a good energy investment:
1. PAVs can create negative pressures in combustion appliances causing the backdrafting
of flue gases such as carbon monoxide in the living space. These same negative pressures can also draw increased levels of moisture and soil gases, such as radon, from the crawlspace.
2. PAVs can draw conditioned air out of the house and into the attic, causing the air conditioning to run more. Conditioned air is then replaced with moisture laden outside air, creating increased humidity levels inside the living space.
3. PAVs can increase utility costs substantially because of the increased energy necessary to run the fan and cool/dehumidify the outside air being drawn into the home.

https://www.dom.com/about/conservation/pdf/attic_ventilation.pdf

J Persons · May 27, 2013

My experience with PAV's is different than what the study posted above shows. I installed a thermostatically controlled powered gable vent over the garage in my house in California. The garage was unheated and uncooled, When the gable fan was running, I would lower the garage door to about a foot from closed, and got a nice breeze flowing from beneath the door and up to the gable vent. Even at outside temps of 110°~112° it was actually quite pleasant inside. There was no ceiling in the garage, just bare rafters. The garage attic area was separated from the house attic area by a partition, I assume due to fire regs.

tylernt · May 27, 2013

You had a different situation though -- attic fans are used to ventilate non-occupied spaces. What you had was an exhaust fan.

HellaFab · May 27, 2013

Im not sure if im seeing the pictures correctly.

Would you have some of the underlay material running between the roof and the ridge cap? It kind of looks like it and I would think that it would prevent air flow.

I also cant speak to if this is the proper install for that product but its just an observation.

even that being said, i agree with adding a ceiling. I am going through this with my garage too.

930dreamer · May 27, 2013

When you add insulation look at soffit baffles to prevent the insulation from covering the soffit opening.

Kevin C · May 27, 2013

My experience is that the ridge vent does not move enough air to reduce temperatures in un-insulated attic. Un-insulated you really need a lot more window area to keep temps down. Even then its a challenge to keep the deck cool enough to minimize radiant heat.

A powered fan would help. I thing that the examples against a powered fan are based on insulated envelopes and running AC. A garage with a really hot attic and no insulation is probably the best case for a powered fan.

I ran baffles from the soffits to the ridge and put in R30 in the bays. With R30, I'm not getting any noticeable radiant heating. Basically, one you have enough of an insulation blanket, a radiant barrier is not important. The flip side of that is if you have no insulation, a radiant barrier can help.

That said, it still gets a little warm in my garages loft. With no ventilation of the "conditioned" space its bound to. Last summer all I has was the ridge vent and open sofits and it was roasting up there. Opening the large large window helped.

So far, with baffles and the R30 its just a little warm. I still have a bit more work to do up there, just getting the bats in was a huge improvement.

tylernt · May 27, 2013

HellaFab said:
Would you have some of the underlay material running between the roof and the ridge cap? It kind of looks like it and I would think that it would prevent air flow

The ridge vent has some filter fabric to keep bugs etc out.

digdug18 · Jun 3, 2013

Your garage isn't a home, you need to STOP thinking of it as one. You don't need a ridge vent, and shouldn't have one, or a soffit vent either. No vent is needed.

Just insulate it, all of it, close the vents with closed cell spray foam, put insulation in the bay, cover that with a heavy 6 mil vapor barrier, making sure to caulk the seams of the vapor barrier to prevent air movement, and with it moisture movement.

As for money, insulation isn't really that expensive, a radiant barrier is ****. The companies tell you that it's great, sure use it if you want, but it's not insulation. Don't think that it is insulation. Check craigslist, you can find insulation at times on there.

Bib Overalls · Jun 3, 2013

First, you need a ceiling. Second you need whirlybird attic vents, and then you need insulation in the ceiling. simple as that.

tylernt · Jun 3, 2013

digdug18 said:
No vent is needed.

Just insulate it, all of it, close the vents with closed cell spray foam,

While this method may work to an extent, I don't see how it can be as effective (nor as cost-effective, spray foam is expensive) as a traditional vented+insulated attic.

The idea of ventilation is as the attic space warms, convective currents bring in cooler air through the soffit as hotter air rises out the ridge. The constant supply of cool air limits the peak temperatures in the roof space. This equates to fewer BTUs transferred to the space below because many of those BTUs are transferred harmlessly to the air coming out the ridge.

Without ventilation, all of the BTUs from the sun hammering on the roof deck are able to pass straight into the garage space below. Insulation can only slow the onslaught, the BTUs have to go somewhere. The fact that the space is a garage vs. dwelling makes little difference, heat is heat and a building envelope is a building envelope.

digdug18 · Jun 3, 2013

tylernt said:
While this method may work to an extent, I don't see how it can be as effective (nor as cost-effective, spray foam is expensive) as a traditional vented+insulated attic.

The idea of ventilation is as the attic space warms, convective currents bring in cooler air through the soffit as hotter air rises out the ridge. The constant supply of cool air limits the peak temperatures in the roof space. This equates to fewer BTUs transferred to the space below because many of those BTUs are transferred harmlessly to the air coming out the ridge.

Without ventilation, all of the BTUs from the sun hammering on the roof deck are able to pass straight into the garage space below. Insulation can only slow the onslaught, the BTUs have to go somewhere. The fact that the space is a garage vs. dwelling makes little difference, heat is heat and a building envelope is a building envelope.

But it's a garage, NOT a house! Your talking about with an attic.

Why go into all that work of creating an unconditioned attic space when you can't use it anyhow?

The garage vs house make all the difference, especially if the air isn't heat and cooled every day of the year. Yeah, your occasionally go in there and want it warmer or colder, depending on the time of year, but insulating the garage will keep that air warm/cool longer.

As for your idea of BTU's going someplace, that's not exactly how it works. Yes, the sun will beat down on the roof, some will radiate off, and some into the sheathing, which will heat up the space below. The insulation will slow the transfer of the heat into the space below. If its 95 degrees out, and you don't have the AC in your garage on, its still going to be 95 degrees in your garage. But it will take longer to reach that temperature, and it might not reach it at all, depending on your air sealing and insulation.

And yes, spray foam is expensive, though a canned foam is rather cheap, you use that to fill the cracks, or spaces upto about 6", to stop the air movement, then use fiberglass/rockwool/denim, whatever insulation in the joist bays, followed by a 6 mil vapor barrier. As I detailed above.

I'll see if I can find the pictures on the fine homebuilding or green building advisor sites for you if your still not understanding...

tylernt · Jun 4, 2013

digdug18 said:
Why go into all that work of creating an unconditioned attic space when you can't use it anyhow?

Better HVAC efficiency?

I'll see if I can find the pictures on the fine homebuilding or green building advisor sites for you if your still not understanding...

Oh, I understand.

I just don't agree.

Falcon67 · Jun 4, 2013

>As for money, insulation isn't really that expensive, a radiant barrier is ****.

Plenty of studies show that radiant is very effective and is in the top 3 or 4 methods of helping control internal climate when payback time is considered. If ranks higher on a bang-for-buck scale than replacing aluminum windows with Low-E vinyl.

>Why go into all that work of creating an unconditioned attic space when you can't
>use it anyhow?

Better control of the building temp. My shop stays in the mid 80s when it's over 100 outside with no AC. It also stays in the mid 50s when it's freezing out. That protects the expensive machinery and vehicles inside. Plus, we do treat this one like a house - play out there, work, watch TV, etc, etc. There is no harm and plenty of gain to be had by treating ANY building like you'd treat your house. Even a dog house!

>While this method may work to an extent, I don't see how it can be as effective
>(nor as cost-effective, spray foam is expensive) as a traditional vented+insulated attic.

Lots of houses are now using this technique where the building envelop is treated like a thermos. That is, it's all spray foamed and sealed up. The HVAC handles all conditioned air, including the attic space because it's inside the envelope. The problem that has to be handled is make up air for vents and such along with a reasonable air exchange to prevent deterioration of indoor air quality. Good for a house, but doesn't work so well in a building that typically has a 16' x 7' hole in one end.

Ineffective Ridge Vent in New, Hot Garage?

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