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Homemade transformer with shielded wire. Doable?

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nehog

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I am not sure why you want to try shielded wire, but no, it is not a good idea. That foil shield will become a potential current carrying conductor! As well, the insulation is too thick, you need wire with thin, very thin, insulation--usually a type of varnish called enamel wire is used. (There are many different configurations of this enamel/varnish and you'd choose one based on your needs such as voltage, temperature, etc.
 
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91bronc300

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There are several 1000 foot rolls of that wire available around here for a good price as surplus right now. Two 12 gauge conductors wired in parallel is about the right number of circular mils for the amperage I'm looking for also so that wire was a pretty good match. I am trying to do this on the cheap and I already have the transformer core, all I need is the wire and to buy 500 or so feet of 10 gauge is a lot of money. I would much rather use this surplus 12/2 cable even if it means taking off the outer insulation to get the shielding off.
 

A_Pmech

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What do you want to do with this proposed transformer?

Negating the real possibility of it burning up, it probably won't be very efficient with all that rubber insulation taking up most of the space in the core window.
 

nehog

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Again, it has the wrong insulation to be used in a transformer. You might be able to trade the wire you have for some that will work however. (Or just sell it on eBay and buy some correct wire?)

However you can't use plastic (or rubber) insulated wire to make a transformer.
 
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91bronc300

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What do you want to do with this proposed transformer?

Negating the real possibility of it burning up, it probably won't be very efficient with all that rubber insulation taking up most of the space in the core window.

To make a 3 phase motor run from single phase. It's a variation of the classic static phase converter. In that case you run the split phase from your house to 2 of the 3 legs then use capacitors to cause a phase shift for the third leg. It works but causes a significant de-rating of starting and running torque.

In the phase converter I'm looking to use the only thing you do different is bump up the voltage to the capacitors to 150% of motor voltage. Doing this does not de-rate the motor, or at least de-rates it negligibly. I have seen other homemade transformers made from common household wire used for this application and they seem to work fine and the motors do indeed start fine even against a load.

So I'm needing a transformer to bump my household 240 volts to 360. I intend right now to wind it as an autotransformer rather than an isolation type although 1000 feet of 12/2 would be enough wire to wind this as an isolation type.

The motor pulls 32 amps at 230 volts and as I understand 3 phase the amp load per leg is the full motor load divided by the square root of 3 so about 18.5 amps. As the transformer will only power one leg the current rating needed should be 18.5 amps AFAIK. I am a little unsure on what the actual amp load on the transformer will be because even though 360 volts will go to the capacitors that won't be the voltage that goes from the capacitors to the third leg of the motor. Two 12 gauge copper conductors wired parallel is about 13000 circular mils or about 700 circular mils per amp so that should be fine (I think).

The core I have is a little over 90 pounds so I don't believe saturation will be a problem. The core window might get tight like you mentioned but if winding as an autotransformer and going by 1.5 volts per turn I will only need 240 turns and I think that will fit fine.
 
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91bronc300

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Again, it has the wrong insulation to be used in a transformer. You might be able to trade the wire you have for some that will work however. (Or just sell it on eBay and buy some correct wire?)

However you can't use plastic (or rubber) insulated wire to make a transformer.

Why is that? Because it's keeping the conductors too far from each other?
 
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91bronc300

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how big is this motor?

HP? I don't know. It powers a 250 amp Lincoln fireplug welder. Here's a pic of one I found online.

images


250 amp @ 30 volts is 7500 watts so I'm guessing the motor is a little north of 10 HP.
 

A_Pmech

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Sounds like you're building a Ronk Add-A-Phase.

Why not just build a rotary converter? You'll be up and running in an afternoon and no worries about a home-brew transformer from some unknown cable to burn the shop down.
 
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91bronc300

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I hadn't heard of the Ronk Add-A-Phase. The website doesn't give any info on how they work but they do look like just a transformer with a capacitor bank.

The reason for not going with a rotary is because I don't have a big 3 phase motor sitting around. To run this welder motor I imagine I'd need a 20 HP motor for the rotary and they don't really pop up on craigslist.

I would be more afraid of electrocuting myself than burning the garage down. But I intend to be careful :) You can look up unique3phase to see where I've gotten this idea from.

 
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nehog

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Why is that? Because it's keeping the conductors too far from each other?

That is one reason: you want the windings to be in the correct part of the magnetic flux that is built up in the core. The other is heating will cause it (the insulation) to fail. Transformer construction is a complex subject (yes, I'm an EE, and yes I've done transformers--it can be fun.)

Typically you'd not get enough turns on the core to make it efficient, and then any heat generated (eddy currents, included) will raise internal temperature beyond the relatively low temperature rating of plastic or rubber insulation.

Proper transformer wire is not hard to find (I know of several sources local to me, for example) and I think the wire you have could fetch a pretty penny on eBay--more than enough to get the right stuff.

Also, what specs are you looking for on this transformer? Primary and secondary voltages? Secondary current? Duty cycle? Are you winding both the primary, or just a new secondary? You probably will be able to get away with an autotransformer configuration (which greatly reduces the power requirements, since only the differential power flows in the transformer.)

One question: have you addressed how to disassemble the core to get the new winding(s) on?
 
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91bronc300

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I was wrong about the wire, it's not shielded. It's just plain Jane 12/2, so that's good.

IMG128_zps7ac7e5fc.jpg


Here's the core I started with. It's 97 lbs.

IMG127_zpsb5273ebf.jpg


I don't have any way of disassembling the core to make winding easier so my only option is to tediously wind it through the core window. I'm just using a bobbin kind of deal.

IMG129_zpsd1937314.jpg


I've wound about 90 turns onto one side of the core so far. Basically 5 'layers', the layers got a little indistinct after a while so I use the term loosely :lol_hitti After winding on one side I hooked it up to 120 V and measured the idle amps at 0.7. Much lower than I thought. I was expecting at least 3. I still need to wind about the same amount of wire onto the other side then connect them in series. Then I will connect 240 volts to this to make sure things are still OK. If they are (i.e. I survive) I will wind a few turns of wire by themselves on, turn it on, see what the volts per turn are, then figure out how many turns I need to add to draw off 360 volts. Then bingo, a 240 volt primary 360 volt secondary autotransformer.

IMG130_zpsb6ddaa9b.jpg


My only real fear here is that I didn't put enough gorilla tape over the laminations before starting to wind and that they might cut into the wires.

BTW Nehog, since you're an EE I have a question about capacitors. In my very limited experience of capacitors it seems that when fed AC they charge up to the peak voltage and not the RMS voltage. When capacitors are rated then are they rated for RMS voltage or peak voltage? I'm wondering if I put 360 volts AC into the 440 volt capacitors I already ordered if they will blow up because 360 RMS equates to 509 peak volts. Thanks.
 

nehog

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BTW Nehog, since you're an EE I have a question about capacitors. In my very limited experience of capacitors it seems that when fed AC they charge up to the peak voltage and not the RMS voltage. When capacitors are rated then are they rated for RMS voltage or peak voltage? I'm wondering if I put 360 volts AC into the 440 volt capacitors I already ordered if they will blow up because 360 RMS equates to 509 peak volts. Thanks.

Yes, you design DC circuits based on capacitors charging to peak voltage. With load it can drop, but you can't base your design on that assumption. Your worry is valid... You can run two capacitors in series to double the voltage (with resistors to balance the voltage between the two) but you will then get only half the effective capacitance (hence you'd need four capacitors to keep the capacitance and double the voltage!)

Typically AC capacitors are rated RMS, so your circuit/application may be just fine. (No warranties expressed or implied--I don't know what capacitors you are using!)

I could answer those questions but since I'm not Nehog, I won't. :thumbup:

You'd do well to address questions to the collective, keeping in mind what makes Internet fora so powerful. But that's just me. ;)

Aw, go ahead and answer! I have a habit of disappearing from time to time...
 
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91bronc300

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Yes, you design DC circuits based on capacitors charging to peak voltage. With load it can drop, but you can't base your design on that assumption. Your worry is valid... You can run two capacitors in series to double the voltage (with resistors to balance the voltage between the two) but you will then get only half the effective capacitance (hence you'd need four capacitors to keep the capacitance and double the voltage!)

Typically AC capacitors are rated RMS, so your circuit/application may be just fine. (No warranties expressed or implied--I don't know what capacitors you are using!)

That's a relief. I figure with a hertz rating on them these are AC capacitors then :D

$(KGrHqQOKosFF0Bg+kSmBRkRFOkul!~~60_57.JPG


Aw, go ahead and answer!

Trout, no butthurt intended. I'll be glad to pick the fruit of any brain with fruit worth picking. :thumbup:




So it looks like hell but I got the other side wound and the two sides temporarily connected. It idles so low I can't tell if I am actually getting a reading on my clamp meter or if it's just fluctuating. I didn't want to dig out the 240 tonight because I need to wrap things up for the night but I put 120 volts to the thing then tested voltage from each end to neutral. One side was 59.1 volts and the other was 60.2. I'm pretty happy with that (OK I'm just happy I'm not in the hospital).

Thanks for watching. :D

IMG132_zpsd819a0e0.jpg
 

Beefbuzz

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The voltage on the secondary will be a direct ratio of the primary. For example, twice the number of winding's on the secondary equal twice the voltage of the primary. Since under load you will have some voltage drop, you typically need to over-wind a bit on the secondary. Sounds like a fun project.
 

Eriehunter

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It appears the cable you have chosen is fire alarm cable and the insulation on fire alarm cable would not be rated for 120 v let alone 360 v. and I'm sure that the insulation is not rated for any high amperage.
 
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91bronc300

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Thank you for all the comments everybody. I'll try and get more done if not the whole project done next week and show how it goes, or melts, whichever.


It appears the cable you have chosen is fire alarm cable and the insulation on fire alarm cable would not be rated for 120 v let alone 360 v. and I'm sure that the insulation is not rated for any high amperage.

Yeah, it's fire alarm cable and its voltage rating is not marked on the insulation. The spec sheet (I found the real spec sheet, not the one that is in the OP) does not recommend voltages over 300 volts. We'll see what happens. Life is a risk anyway and I've had enough common sense to stay alive so far.......

Stay tuned.
 

madosta

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1.21 JIGGAWATTS!!!

I still have no idea WTF you are proposing to do, but it is cool that you are experimenting.
 
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