Load bearing wall in the middle of 2 car garage! Should I remove it?

Tom2 · Jan 20, 2010

It's a split level ranch.

The way they used to build houses was retarded..

24ft wall right down the middle of the garage.

Also, a little crooked right here and screwed up siding. Shouldn't be too hard to straighten that out.

Any structural engineers or home builders? Do you think it's worth the hassle of removing?

In some ways having 2 spaces can be advantageous. One side for woodworking, another side for car stuff..
But I would still really prefer for one wide open space. I mostly do car/engine work anyways.

I'm by no means an engineer, but have familiarized myself with basic framing and have a plan of attack for how to remove the wall.

1: Rip off all the drywall.

2: Put up a temporary 2X4 wall right next to the existing wall. It will have to go on the left side - since the HVAC ducts are in the way on the right side. The studs for the temp wall will be placed directly under the joists, within probably 6-10 inches or so of the old wall. This will make the work area kinda tight for removal of the old studs, and placement of new header, but I can get it done.

3: Build a header of 2 or 3 2X12s. Is 2 enough? Add the 3rd for good measure?? Or do I need a steel beam or glu-lam beam? I plan on 4 (maybe even 5) column supports for the header.

4: I do not believe there is a footer in the middle of the foundation. Of course in new construction, there is a beam down the middle of the house instead of a full wall, so there is also a footer. With a full wall like this, I'm guessing there isn't a footer. No idea though.

Instead of digging up the foundation to build a concrete footer for each lally column - I'm wondering if I can put down a sheet of steel under each column to spread the load across the floor. Figure something around 3/8-1/2 thick over about 12"-15" would work. Would create a bit of a trip hazard.. but I can live with that, and probably work out a way to hide it. Maybe even box in the lally columns eventually.

5: Put up the lally columns. With 2-3 2X12's over a span of 24 ft, I figure 4 lally columns should support the load pretty well. On on each end, the 2 others spaced evenly apart. I have some lally columns laying around, so that's basically free. Perhaps I could go with a steel or glu-lam beam and only need 3 columns..but I can live with a couple columns in my way. Anything is better than the way it is now.

As mentioned in point #4, each column will be on a sheet of steal to spread the load over the concrete floor. I'll attach the column through the steal plate to the concrete using anchor bolts.

Any critiquing to my plan? I'm a little nervous to get started since it's a fairly big undertaking. The last thing I want to do is weaken the structural integrity of this house. It's a pretty solid structure. Joists are 2X10. Not much bounce in the upstairs, etc.. So I'd much rather over engineer it.

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

If that is a load bearing wall it may already have a "thickened slab", it should already have a "thickened slab" to support the weight. There are several approaches if it's determined that it is a structural wall and depending on what you want to do and achieve.

Do you know for sure if it's a structural wall? Sometimes you can get a copy of the original plans for the home from the building department in the town you reside. That's where I'd start, you'll find out if that wall is original, if the slab was thickened or a footing below and possibly something in the wall you're not aware of, like a sewer drain, etc.

And if you go the permit route you will have to do it to the building inspectors liking, building codes and they may require the involvement of a structural engineer or architect.

Plump · Jan 20, 2010

For that span, you may need to go with a laminated beam or just go straight to an steel I-beam. Worth the cost for sure.

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

Tom2 said:
2: Put up a temporary 2X4 wall right next to the existing wall. It will have to go on the left side - since the HVAC ducts are in the way on the right side. The studs for the temp wall will be placed directly under the joists, within probably 6-10 inches or so of the old wall. This will make the work area kinda tight for removal of the old studs, and placement of new header, but I can get it done.

If it is a load bearing wall and they are not full width joists and overlap on top of the stud wall in the middle of the garage you could run into a problem supporting it only on one side.

cookster · Jan 20, 2010

If you look at structure way trusses set , load walls on out side. But floor joist above garage run width garage. May be beam in middle wall. What we use to do was run two 14' 2''x10'' over lap in middle. Cause can't get 24' 2''x10'' Take look in wall if you can may be I beam in their. I just caught post above. Yes they could have set joist on top 2''x4'' wall. It's not bad job set beam up their. Just got support floor above.

Tom2 · Jan 20, 2010

Mickey O said:
If it is a load bearing wall and they are not full width joists and overlap on top of the stud wall in the middle of the garage you could run into a problem supporting it only on one side.

Thats a good point.. The joists are not full length. They overlap over top of the wall. However, it overlaps to the left side (thankfully). Can't see how far it overlaps, but it might work out of the temp wall is right next to the current wall. I would just put up 2 temp walls - but the HVAC on the right side is fully framed and drywalled in.. I could of course remove it all temporarily..but man, that would be a pain. But probaly not as much work as it sounds. Maybe I could carefully remove it, and reuse the framing and just redrywall it. Really, I don't even care so much if it's drywalled. Just looks nicer.

The wall runs the whole length of the lower level, so, I am sure it's structural.

Also, there is a crack down in the foundation the entire length of the wall. It's a small crack(nothing I'm worried about) - but that's kind of another sign that it may not have a footer.

Maybe I'll call the town hall and see if they have a copy of the homes original plans. That would determine for certain if there is a center footer.

Tom2 · Jan 20, 2010

cookster said:
If you look at structure way trusses set , load walls on out side. But floor joist above garage run width garage. May be beam in middle wall. What we use to do was run two 14' 2''x10'' over lap in middle. Cause can't get 24' 2''x10'' Take look in wall if you can may be I beam in their. I just caught post above. Yes they could have set joist on top 2''x4'' wall. It's not bad job set beam up their. Just got support floor above.

Nah unfortunately it's just a regular 2X4 wall with 2 top plates..

In fact.. I'll grab a pic from the utility room..

And yea, it's not so much a matter of supporting the attic/roof, etc.. Because the trusses carry most of that load to the side walls. I'm sure the house has sagged some over the last 35+ years.. But the main purpose of a basement beam is to keep the upstairs level from deflecting/bouncing (if I understand it correctly)

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

Tom2 said:
Thats a good point.. The joists are not full length. They overlap over top of the wall. However, it overlaps to the left side (thankfully). Can't see how far it overlaps, but it might work out of the temp wall is right next to the current wall. I would just put up 2 temp walls - but the HVAC on the right side is fully framed and drywalled in.. I could of course remove it all temporarily..but man, that would be a pain. But probaly not as much work as it sounds. Maybe I could carefully remove it, and reuse the framing and just redrywall it. Really, I don't even care so much if it's drywalled. Just looks nicer.

The wall runs the whole length of the lower level, so, I am sure it's structural.

Also, there is a crack down in the foundation the entire length of the wall. It's a small crack(nothing I'm worried about) - but that's kind of another sign that it may not have a footer.

Maybe I'll call the town hall and see if they have a copy of the homes original plans. That would determine for certain if there is a center footer.

The fact that the joists overlap confirms that it's a structural wall. Steel beams are usually cheaper than wood. I would definitely consider digging out for footing(s), you may only need one and be able to rest the other end on the existing structure (built up) which likely goes down to a footing (end farthest from garage door). A word of caution, I would recommend having a structural engineer or architect have a look, calculate and draw up a detail, but if you are going to do it yourself without sometimes building department will check up on you if you get a copy of your home plans.

Tom2 · Jan 20, 2010

You can see the joist overlap here:

Dang..After taking a better look. The overlap isn't much at all.. Total of about 4 inches.

So yea.. Would probably need 2 temporary walls.

Thanks for the heads up Mickey! So far one hole has been found in my plan! :lol:

blkhonda1991 · Jan 20, 2010

4 columns is overkill for 24'...you should be able to get away with 2 for an 8' span between columns, hell maybe even just 1 at the centerpoint depending on the beam sizing. Looking at the above picture your going to have to build two temp support structures to support the floor while you remove the wall, which ***** but still doable.

edit: rereading your post i see what you meant by 4 columns...in the case of the two end points of the beam you'd just be sitting the beam in a new stud pocket so no need for actual lally columns there

Tom2 · Jan 20, 2010

blkhonda1991 said:
4 columns is overkill for 24'...you should be able to get away with 2 for an 8' span between columns, hell maybe even just 1 at the centerpoint depending on the beam sizing. Looking at the above picture your going to have to build two temp support structures to support the floor while you remove the wall, which ***** but still doable.

edit: rereading your post i see what you meant by 4 columns...in the case of the two end points of the beam you'd just be sitting the beam in a new stud pocket so no need for actual lally columns there

Right.. I could just use 2 2X4s or a 4X4 or even 6X6 (if I go with 3 2X12s) on each end. Then have 2 lally columns in the middle.

Would it hurt to use lally columns on the end? I guess it would be best to use wood, so it could be attached in more spots to the existing framing.

Yea.. Putting up 2 temp walls DEFINITELY *****.. But its the right thing to do. All that HVAC will have to be ripped out temporarily. That will make it a pain to fit whatever beam in place..

cookster · Jan 20, 2010

Looks like laminated beam and few screw jacks. You can make 2''x12'' beam with plywood in between. I done few jobs like this in past. Crazy when poured floor just set suport wall then floor joist on top. When I built my house I have 40' 2'x12' [tripled] running full length with srew jacks every eight feet. Also have footer under screw jacks. You need temp wall and call have laminated beam made.

pcmeiners · Jan 20, 2010

I would definitely get an Engineer in on this, pay for it now, or when the house changes hands, you may need to do it over.

"I guess it would be best to use wood, so it could be attached in more spots to the existing framing."

I would say a steel beam to maintain clearance/greater strength... and they make ties which connect steel beams to would joists.

That is a small overlap on the joists.

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

pcmeiners said:
I would definitely get an Engineer in on this, pay for it now, or when the house changes hands, you may need to do it over.

"I guess it would be best to use wood, so it could be attached in more spots to the existing framing."

I would say a steel beam to maintain clearance/greater strength... and they make ties which connect steel beams to would joists.

That is a small overlap on the joists.

Quite possibly not meeting today's codes and would require some additional work if permitted, but an engineers seal can get around that.

Tom2 · Jan 20, 2010

I meant a wood column on each side of the header.

The only point of a stronger beam than 2 2X12s would be so that I could have less columns for the support. Obviously with a very large beam I could get away with no columns in the middle.

But, I don't mind having a couple columns in the middle - plus it never hurts to over engineer something a little.

That's why I figured 2 2X12s with a total of 4 supports would be plenty.

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

Tom2 said:
I meant a wood column on each side of the header.

The only point of a stronger beam than 2 2X12s would be so that I could have less columns for the support. Obviously with a very large beam I could get away with no columns in the middle.

But, I don't mind having a couple columns in the middle - plus it never hurts to over engineer something a little.

That's why I figured 2 2X12s with a total of 4 supports would be plenty.

There's a bit more to it, like a pocket to prevent the beam twisting (if wood), etc., with the right size beam, you shouldn't need to add columns, one end will go into the wall farthest from the garage wall, the other will go into the wall between the two garage doors down to what should be a footing (it may already have a footing if the house was originally built the way it currently is and if both garage doors have separate headers). ow if you're just looking for a door or passage between the two garages that would be a lot easier but I would still address the problems at the front on the wall between the two doors.

tcianci · Jan 20, 2010

Also, there is a crack down in the foundation the entire length of the wall. It's a small crack(nothing I'm worried about) - but that's kind of another sign that it may not have a footer.

You mentioned this crack down the foundation? Or down the floor for the whole length of the wall?

tcianci · Jan 20, 2010

You would be safer with 2 temp walls but just build the 2nd one on the other side of the ducting, it will be plenty strong. Go to a lumber yard that deals in engineered lumber, they will have software that will specify the correct engineered lumber for the job. Most munincipalities will accept the computer generated spec for approval. If you decide to use steel or build one out of wood you will need the stamp from a structural engineer. Since you have lally columns handy you may as well use them. You may find that with an engineered beam it will be possible to even have no columns in the middle of the run.

charlie_nj · Jan 20, 2010

If you check the span tables for southern yellow pine, if the total span of your joists, from both sides, is 24' (estimating from the picture), and you want a clear span of 12' in the garage (one column required at midpoint), then a tripled up 2 x 12 will work as long as it's no. 1 grade. If all you can get is no 2. then 4 2 x 12's are specified for the same 12' clear span. A 3 1/2 x 12 3/8 gluelam would work also, with one column in midspan.

Bear in mind that you're gonna lose 12 inches of headroom in the center of the garage, from what looks like an 8 foot ceiling.

Personally I'd go with steel because of the headroom issue. From looking at the residential steel span tables, I think a W6 x 12 steel beam would meet your requirements. This would give you 6" additional headroom, minus 1 1/2 inches for a nailer on top of the steel. You'd need one midspan column. If you went to a W12 x 22, you maybe could eliminate the column, but would lose the 12" inches headroom.

Of course, the steel is the most expensive route.

Disclaimer: I am not a structural engineer.

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

charlie_nj said:
If you check the span tables for southern yellow pine, if the total span of your joists, from both sides, is 24' (estimating from the picture), and you want a clear span of 12' in the garage (one column required at midpoint), then a tripled up 2 x 12 will work as long as it's no. 1 grade. If all you can get is no 2. then 4 2 x 12's are specified for the same 12' clear span. A 3 1/2 x 12 3/8 gluelam would work also, with one column in midspan.

Bear in mind that you're gonna lose 12 inches of headroom in the center of the garage, from what looks like an 8 foot ceiling.

Personally I'd go with steel because of the headroom issue. From looking at the residential steel span tables, I think a W6 x 12 steel beam would meet your requirements. This would give you 6" additional headroom, minus 1 1/2 inches for a nailer on top of the steel. You'd need one midspan column. If you went to a W12 x 22, you maybe could eliminate the column, but would lose the 12" inches headroom.

Of course, the steel is the most expensive route.

Disclaimer: I am not a structural engineer.

Steel beams are usually cheaper than wood.

Snap50 · Jan 20, 2010

I don't suggest temporary walls because they will be in your way to do the new work.
Instead you should put some temporary beams and shoring posts leaving room to work. You might even rent the entire shoring system, beams and posts.

You can't really go rule of thumb or tables for sizing your new beam. It depends on loading above which might include the upper floor ceiling and maybe even some roof load. Get in the attic to she what is going on.

A couple hours of an Engineer's time migt save you allot of trouble later on. And the Building Department might require someone to certify the beam design anyways. Better to do it before rather than after. Remember that you are taking on liability for all those using your house now but also future owners.

Unless you're superman, installing LVLs would probably be less physically demanding than a steel beam.

And expect cracks in many of the finishes located above the area where the wall is going to be removed. Think about the fact that that construction is currently supported in a way that it experiences no movement or deflection. No matter how stiff you design a beam, it is going to deflect, moving everything above with it. You will have immediate dead load deflections in the new beam.

blkhonda1991 · Jan 20, 2010

Mickey O said:
Quite possibly not meeting today's codes and would require some additional work if permitted, but an engineers seal can get around that.

i wouldnt worry about it too much since its an existing condition just putting a beam in place of the wall isnt changing enough to warrant bringing the rest of the framing to current code

Mickey O · Jan 20, 2010

blkhonda1991 said:
i wouldnt worry about it too much since its an existing condition just putting a beam in place of the wall isnt changing enough to warrant bringing the rest of the framing to current code

Depends on the jurisdiction and the code they use, loosely paraphrased from the IRC; any time a significant structural change is made existing deficiencies must be brought up to code.

WNYflyer · Jan 20, 2010

Perhaps bury a steel or wood column in the existing back and front cross walls and over top of existing foundation walls most likely. Then install perhaps a steel channel or LVL’s on both sides of the walls to pick up the floor joists above, and attach these to the new columns that are centered on the existing wall to be removed. Basically sandwiching the existing wall and transfering the load to the new beams. Then cut out the existing wall. No to minimal shoring required. Steel members could be have bolted splices located between the joist spacing above to cut down on the handling weight of each piece. An idea, with the big unknown being whether or not your existing foundation can take the new loads. Everything properly sized of course.

Just another idea though i see some plumbing in the way.

boiler7904 · Jan 20, 2010

As long as the joists fully bear on the new beam, the overlap should be a non issue. Think about an individual joist bearing on a 2x4 stud wall - 3 1/2" is all you get unless there is an oversized post of some sort installed.

If you go the glulam / steel beam route, set it alongside the existing wall before you build the temp walls / start demo. Tripping over it for a little while will be more convenient then trying to fish a 24' beam in between 2 walls.

As much as I hate interior columns, they give you two advantages - shorter spans for the beam which means a shallower beam = more headroom. The other advantage is that trying to install two 12' beams is easier than a single 24' beam.

Justanoldguy · Jan 21, 2010

I would go with 12" timber beams as opposed to steel.
Use just one post to hold up the centre.
Steel will flex way more than any timber beam will.
Not good for the living area above.

Kevin54 · Jan 21, 2010

If it were me, I'd go with GluLam beams, build temporary support walls leaving enough room to work around, and rip out the existing wall and complete front of the garage. You have some issues going on with the bottom of your siding. Either it is rotting out or something looks like it is settling, so basically it needs rebuilt also.

Tom2 · Jan 21, 2010

Well... A lot of good stuff to think about..

My in-laws have a steel beam in their basement. It's a similar split level type house that's just a few years newer. The beam is pretty small, and theres quite a bit of bounce to their upstairs if people are jumping around.

I definitely think 2X12s would be best.. Unless if Glu-lam is less likely to twist.

I also think with again, 2 2X12s, and 2 supports in the middle - there would be very minimal bounce in the upstairs. More than with a full framed wall? Yes, probably..but nothing all that detectable. I would really doubt the upstairs drywall would crack/damage through the process unless I was not very careful over the process.

I've replaced sills on this house before. Not a crack anywhere..

Maybe it would be best to buy more lally columns and use them for the temp support walls. Would be faster to build. Plus I could adjust them to fit very tight against the joists. Unlike a temp wall which all you can do is wedge in place.

Would probably use several lally columns on each side with 2 2X8s..Something like that would be more than strong enough. A lally column on every 3rd joist, etc..

I imagine the sill on the front of the wall between the 2 garage doors is rotted.

I'll probably put up a temp column on each side of the garage directly under the headers. Then rip out the bad framing and replace it/straighten it/anchor it. PT wood of course. The sill is basically at ground level..
I know the best thing would be to set the sill on atleast one level of blocks..but with PT wood and properly anchored..it'll last a very very long time.

The inside wall where the garage door tracking attaches is actually plywood.. Which is what will make this kind of a paint.. Have to remove part of the garage door tracking, cut out the plywood, etc..

I'm actually concerned with where to buy the siding.. HD and Lowes don't seem to have it. Just regular aluminum. I imagine theres places to get it, just haven't looked into it too much yet.

I don't know.. I just really dread this garage project. Really wish I hadn't bought this house lol

We'll see if I can ever build up enough guts to really jump into it.. Done a lot of work on the house already..Kinda been burnt out for the last year or so. Same with the wallet..

Maybe I will compromise and just put a large opening between the 2 rooms. Something like 4-5ft.. Then just put up 2X10 or 2X12 header.. That would obviously be much easier. Still need temp supports..but I have everything to do that.

I just think an opening like that would be kind of stupid. It looks like someone tried to make it better, but didnt have the guts to go all the way.

rwhite692 · Jan 21, 2010

+1 for steel beam...best way to go by far.

cookster · Jan 21, 2010

Wood verses steel depends on fire code. Tom heres picture of pocket at end beam which sets on. Srew jacks best temp supports , just for fact crank up put some pre-load on.

APEowner · Jan 21, 2010

Hmm. Just and idle thought as I was scanning this thread. What about something like a pass through counter/bench type thing in the middle? It doesn't solve any of the temporary support issues or really the question of what to use for the header but it would allow you to make useable space under and around whatever column/header/beam configuration you use. Just a thought and perhaps, not a good one.

Justanoldguy · Jan 21, 2010

Ok. I have given this some thought over night.
Remove the wall lining both sides.
Nail a 2x12 on either side hard up under the floor joists.
Nail into every stud and the top plate also.
Use either 12 footers or 8 footers dependent on whether you want 1 center post or 2 posts under the beam.
Build a solid post under each end. At least 6x8 and one or two in the center,
Remember you beam is now 8 inches wide.
Once this is done, cut off all remaining studs.
It will not fall down and you never needed to put up a temporary wall.
Then cap the bottom of the beam with a 2x8.
All done.
I feel that since the original wall was load bearing that there will be a concrete foundation beam running full length so post support will be sufficient.

Cheers from down under.

Clive.

Tom2 · Jan 21, 2010

Wow..That is interesting.

I had to re-read that about 4 times..but I think I understand what you're saying.

If I understand it right..

Put a 2X12 on both ends of the current load bearing wall. Nail them into the existing studs and the joists.

Then put support columns under the entire thing. (I'll probably still use Lally columns since they can be cinched up tight..Would just need wood, or metal spacer on top to cover the whole beam). Also would need to cut part of the existing wall's sill to allow for column placement. Between studs..Nothing dramatic to affect anything..

Cut off all of the studs, leaving the top parts in between the 2 x 12s.

Then box in the bottom if desired..

Anyone have any opinions on that? Should be plenty strong. Can't imagine it twisting either..

rsanter · Jan 21, 2010

as you said, there can be advantages to the separate spaces, its all what works for you.

instead of removing the whole thing, what about opening up a 6ft or 8ft section in the middle?
this could be done much easier for less cost. question is will that work for you?

bob

blkhonda1991 · Jan 21, 2010

im not really sold on the method tom mentioned

cookster · Jan 21, 2010

Plate each side of 2''x4'' wall with 2''x12''. I have call my boss on this. Im a commercial contractor for 30 years. Going make few calls let you know. I know for fact you would want a srew jack to put some preload on 2''x12'' befor you nail it in place. I think this way will work. May be code vilation when go sell house. The other problem is you going lose some height walk under. Becomes head banger.

Tom2 · Jan 21, 2010

cookster said:
Plate each side of 2''x4'' wall with 2''x12''. I have call my boss on this. Im a commercial contractor for 30 years. Going make few calls let you know. I know for fact you would want a srew jack to put some preload on 2''x12'' befor you nail it in place. I think this way will work. May be code vilation when go sell house. The other problem is you going lose some height walk under. Becomes head banger.

I appreciate the help!

And I agree about the preload. I believe I can crank the lally columns enough to get a good preload. It's not the same as a jack, but when I was replacing sills in another part of the house - I could crank them until I was hearing popping above. That's when I stopped. No cracked drywall through that whole process.

As for as the code.. You should see the dumps around here.. They are pretty flexible. Most homes are turn of the century or trailers. I can guarantee no one will bat an eye over it. I'm in a agriculture zone. Not like I'm in a city or anything.

Daniel Dudley · Jan 21, 2010

blkhonda1991 said:
im not really sold on the method tom mentioned

I thought that at first too, but then I decided it was a bad plan. I think you are going to wind up rebuilding the front wall between the two garage doors, so plan on pocketing the beam in there. if the wall is out and you have the two temp walls out a little bit from the center, you can walk the beam in from the front, straight in, jack it up, and build the new wall around it. Once you get the existing wall out, you can open up the drywall on the far wall, and see if you want to pocket the beam in there as well.

a heavy 8x8 steel I beam would be overkill for that job, but I am just a monkey, so what do I know ?

Tom2 · Jan 21, 2010

Well, I don't plan on removing the wall between the garage doors and totally rebuilding it.

Yes, that would be nice.. But my plan is just to jack it up just slightly, knock it close to level, replace the sill, anchor it, replace the siding. Call it a day.

cookster · Jan 21, 2010

Tom got off phone with engineer. Looks like your stuck with what you have. Try to explain best. That wall now is supporting the whole length. So when you take it out and support header with post. It's being supported [say 4 post] now it's load is one them 4 post. With out footer under them post , trouble will start.

Load bearing wall in the middle of 2 car garage! Should I remove it?

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