Who makes US General?

[welderwink]

Do any of you guys know who makes the HF brand us general tool chest and cabinets? Thanks.

[welderwink]

and are they american made? I have a problem buying non american tools being that I am a american blue collar worker.

[Bull]

There are many threads about this brand on here.

I do not believe ever seeing one that tells what company makes that line though, no.

It's foreign, though.

[steve63]

If I was a gambling man, I would say The name is the importer and the product is foreign. Thats because they don't promote American made on the product Do They?

[r0meyrome]

Its more than likely important. Who cares, for the best bang for the buck, US General tool box will serve you better than the craftsman boxes at sears.

[trailwart]

most boxes are over seas, some are canadian.

[Mickey O]

The US General toolbox is made the same place Michigan Industrial Tools (MIT), Chicago Electric Tools, Pittsburgh Tools And Milwaukee Tools are made, Asia, isn't it clear from their names.

[Mickey O]

Originally Posted by welderwink

and are they american made? I have a problem buying non american tools being that I am a american blue collar worker.

I like the way you think, we need more folks like you in this country.

[Skin]

Originally Posted by Mickey O

Milwaukee Tools are made

You fail there swifty. Milwaukee has been American based since the 20s and still is. But you keep peaching the word, hopefully you can put many more Americans out of jobs before your time here on earth is done.

Originally Posted by Mickey O

I like the way you think, we need more folks like you in this country.

Yea i dont understand why people dont locate a tool truck and finance a few thousand dollars worth*. Everyone should do that!



*Note: This will get you 1 comination wrench set, 2 ratchets and a set of basic sockets.

[Mickey O]

Originally Posted by Skin

You fail there swifty. Milwaukee has been American based since the 20s and still is. But you keep peaching the word, hopefully you can put many Americans out of jobs before your time here on earth is done.

All the Milwaukee tools I have bought in the past few years were Asian imports except for some router bits, they were Italian or German. They were also the last Milwaukee Tools I will be buying that aren't NOS or used USA made ones.Techtronic (the maker of Ryobi and other cheap tools) bought Milwaukee Tools.

[Mickey O]

Originally Posted by Skin

Yea i dont understand why people dont locate a tool truck and finance a few thousand dollars worth*. Everyone should do that!

*Note: This will get you 1 comination wrench set, 2 ratchets and a set of basic sockets.

That's funny because I have many tool boxes full of high end, high quality, USA made tools and many were obtained for less than the cost of Asian imports. You might look through the recent posts, even the ones from just today, to see all the great deals people here got on quality USA made tools.

[welderwink]

Ryobi is awful. and I wish americans focused on buying american made products. its too bad that lots of people want cheap stuff not quality stuff.

[RbrtAWhyt]

Originally Posted by welderwink

and are they american made? I have a problem buying non american tools being that I am a american blue collar worker.

Then stay out of HF if you feel that way. However, if you decided you can live with yourself, you will find many useful things there, as many of the rest of us have. The US General toolboxes have gotten very good reviews here. Check out the pics of what some of the guys have done with them. Impressive...

[welderwink]

I try to buy american, and will sacrifice some cash to do so, but sometimes you just cant do it. So we will see what happens, I am not in a rush so if I can find a deal somewhere else that is american made I will go that route.

[Mickey O]

Originally Posted by RbrtAWhyt

Then stay out of HF if you feel that way. However, if you decided you can live with yourself, you will find many useful things there, as many of the rest of us have. The US General toolboxes have gotten very good reviews here. Check out the pics of what some of the guys have done with them. Impressive...

(pictures of HF box)

Impressive? Here's impressive. link:

[welderwink]

I can respect that.

[kmorgancraw]

Originally Posted by RbrtAWhyt

Then stay out of HF if you feel that way. However, if you decided you can live with yourself, you will find many useful things there, as many of the rest of us have. The US General toolboxes have gotten very good reviews here. Check out the pics of what some of the guys have done with them. Impressive...

Buying several HF toolboxes and putting them together is not impressive. Sh*t is still sh*t no matter how high you stack it.

[welderwink]

kmorgancraw are you implying that you cant turn chicken sh!t into chicken salad?

[r0meyrome]

Haha this thread will end up like any thread that involves origins. A war between those who support American made tools and those who support tools that gets the job done.

[welderwink]

i didnt mean to start a fight.

[welderwink]

I do like/buy european cars.

[classic70]

Northern tools has the us general box with some name i have never herd of, so i am guessing there is some oem for the box.

[welderwink]

I am somewhat interested in a waterloo box and an excel box. i worked at a place where we had a bottom of the line waterloo and it worked great.

[RbrtAWhyt]

Originally Posted by Mickey O

Impressive? Here's impressive. link:

I agree. He did a great job on that box.

[welderwink]

yea that is pretty cool lookings i like it.

[Bull]

Originally Posted by welderwink

i didnt mean to start a fight.

I am sure this is true.

But so far we have one guy calling another "swifty" and a second guy making fun of what members of this board have done with those imported boxes.

So let's cut the crust. Keep the disagreements IMPERSONAL.

[welderwink]

what is the deal on this site with junior members, members, and senior members? is it amount of time being a member that makes you go from one to the other?

[RbrtAWhyt]

Originally Posted by kmorgancraw

Buying several HF toolboxes and putting them together is not impressive. Sh*t is still sh*t no matter how high you stack it.

Well, we are all entitled to our own opinions. From the reviews these boxes have gotten on here would indicate that the US General boxes are not "shit". The general concensus is that they are much better than the "shit" Craftsman boxes found at your local Sears...

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=53369

[r0meyrome]

its not the seniority but more of the preferences among us. People who only support USA tools and those who buy what gets by and finishes the job. I see it as a bias between those two sets. In my opinion its stupid but to each his own, just buy what you like. If thats USA made tools go for it, dont need a member from the internet to tell you what you want. I gone through 5 boxes already. I had a craftsman older model, husky (newer style), snap on, harbor freight box, and now a newer craftsman. I just buy what I like.

[Bull]

Originally Posted by welderwink

what is the deal on this site with junior members, members, and senior members? is it amount of time being a member that makes you go from one to the other?

100 posts and you will be a senior member, too.

[TireTracks]

I;ve never felt or seen one, because we dont have a harbor freight here, wish we did. My dad wants to get a engine crane for a project.

But if the reviews on here say anything, they are better than the Hencho en mexico craftsman boxes.

[stricht8]

I have to admit that these US General boxes are pretty sturdy and well built. I have considered buying one a few times. The problem is that I can get used US made Snap on for not that much more so I just don't see the point.

[Skin]

Originally Posted by Mickey O

All the Milwaukee tools I have bought in the past few years were Asian imports except for some router bits, they were Italian or German. They were also the last Milwaukee Tools I will be buying that aren't NOS or used USA made ones.

Purchased a brand new corded drill just last week, both it and the blow mold case are made in the USA.

Techtronic (the maker of Ryobi and other cheap tools) bought Milwaukee Tools.

So what? Milwaukees HQ and plants are still US based and they continue to produce many products here. As far as i'm aware ALL their tools, including those made oversease, are serviced and repaired in the US so quite infact you should be thankful that they import some of that, to paraphrase you, 'asian junk' as i'm sure its giving them more work than ever. Never the less Milwaukee Tool Company operate their own business, its not like they magically turned into a Ryobi/Milwaukee production facility.

Danaher owns Matco and Armstrong but also has their hands in many taiwanese tools, i guess people should never buy Matco and Armstrong right?

Stanley Tool Works owns MAC and Proto and produces stuff in China, Taiwan and Mexico by the truckload. Dont buy them either!

Even the Snap-On cooperation is expanding aggressively into Asia. Never buy them again too!

Man you've got your work cut out for you telling everyone the evils of purchasing all these brands.

[SGKent]

Haha this thread will end up like any thread that involves origins. A war between those who support American made tools and those who support tools that gets the job done.

That was silly. 95% of my tools are American made and they work as better than the Chinese ones. The difference is that I can no longer buy replacements made in USA because the factories are gone. Look around you - see all those homeless people? The 'sit at a machine and press a button' jobs that used to feed them and give them a little studio apartment moved to China. Now you have to feed them with your taxes. Slick, it worked out well for us. We are not much better off than Iceland or Greece - we owe the Lords of Europe and they again own the Colonies after 235 years. American tools powered the world. They got the job done too well and now we pay for it with our freedom regardless of what race you are.

[Lookin4'67Galaxieconv]

Originally Posted by Bull

100 posts and you will be a senior member, too.

And you pass the initiation test, pledge!

[kornjulio]

I earn virtually all my income from Americans buying my product (which is assembled in America of largely American made components). Untill the Chicoms start buying from me, I won't be buying from them. Sounds reasonable to me.

[stricht8]

Originally Posted by kornjulio

I earn virtually all my income from Americans buying my product. Untill the Chicoms start buying from me, I won't be buying from them. Sounds reasonable to me.

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

[Mickey O]

Originally Posted by Skin

Purchased a brand new corded drill just last week, both it and the blow mold case are made in the USA.

Post some pics and model info, I'd be interested in purchasing a USA made cordless drill, is it NOS or current line? As I already said the last few Milwaukee tools I purchased were all imports.

[billymade]

Are there any patent numbers or any other info on these boxes? Sometimes looking up patents here can give you a clue to who makes the boxes; maybe emailing harbor freight could help as well.

http://www.google.com/patents

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/cs.taf

[ATTappman]

Originally Posted by kornjulio

Untill the Chicoms start buying from me, I won't be buying from them. Sounds reasonable to me.

China is the third largest buyer of US goods in the world. Canada is number one. Mexico is number two.

Electrical machinery and power generation equipment were the two largest categories of US exports to China in 2008.

[Zrexxer]

Originally Posted by billymade

maybe emailing harbor freight could help as well.

I'm betting by that statement you've never tried communicating with anyone who works at HF before... those people make postal counter workers look happy

[r0meyrome]

I dont get why theres so much hostility towards Chinese made tools or even import made in general. Its the companies you guys should be sickened by if anything. They made the decision to move elsewhere, they decided to take a company thats held USA customers happy for years but instead decided to make a few extra bucks making it elsewhere. If those homeless people were employed by these companies, hell id be mad too, but come on there's opportunities everywhere to find a job to get by. Im not tryna turn any minds around or anything but like ATTappman said China buys alot of our products and vice versa.

[Eric Nordstrom]

Originally Posted by Zrexxer

I'm betting by that statement you've never tried communicating with anyone who works at HF before... those people make postal counter workers look happy

That is oh so true, And funny!

Eric

[Bull]

Originally Posted by Zrexxer

I'm betting by that statement you've never tried communicating with anyone who works at HF before... those people make postal counter workers look happy

People in the stores or at corporate? The closest one to me has reasonably friendly counter-people and an old-school manager that's pretty cool.

[Zrexxer]

Originally Posted by Bull

People in the stores or at corporate? The closest one to me has reasonably friendly counter-people and an old-school manager that's pretty cool.

Nah, the store people are generally pretty good to deal with... but he was talking about emailing them so I was referring to their corporate people. Talking to them can be frustrating, enough so that I haven't done it in years, so who knows, maybe it's improved.

[Shadowdog500]

Originally Posted by r0meyrome

I dont get why theres so much hostility towards Chinese made tools or even import made in general. Its the companies you guys should be sickened by if anything. They made the decision to move elsewhere, they decided to take a company thats held USA customers happy for years but instead decided to make a few extra bucks making it elsewhere. If those homeless people were employed by these companies, hell id be mad too, but come on there's opportunities everywhere to find a job to get by. Im not tryna turn any minds around or anything but like ATTappman said China buys alot of our products and vice versa.

Im also not against trade as long as it is a balanced trade. If china did buy allot of our stuff I would have no problem buying their stuff, but they don't. The trade deficit with China is over 226Billion Dollars: REF: http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/...5700.html#2009.
And it i increasing by 1 billion dollars a day.
Ref: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=18518903

They only purchase one dollars worth of american stuff for every five that we spend on their stuff. Most of the stuff they get from us is soybeans, semiconductors, and other raw materials like copper that is used in manufacturing.

I don't think the problem lies with the Chinese or the companies. I think it is the american consumer who demands low prices at any cost, and really don't care/realize that it may costs their neighbor's job. The only way that demand can be met is by using cheap offshore labor. If more consumers demanded American made products, and were willing to pay the extra cost, the companies would find a way to get it, and more americans would have a job.

Id do buy foreign products from countries that buy allot of ours. That is how free trade was supposed to work. They buy our stuff and we buy theirs, Right???? Apparently the Chinese forgot that they should buy stuff from us.

Chris

[Jack90210]

..........

[old salvage]

Originally Posted by Mickey O

Post some pics and model info, I'd be interested in purchasing a USA made cordless drill, is it NOS or current line? As I already said the last few Milwaukee tools I purchased were all imports.

Probably nos. The Milwaukee drills at all the Home Despots around here are import.

[quneur]

Buying a Stanley tool where does the profit go? I would imagine:

Chinese labor + chinese materials + chinese factory overhead + chinese distribution + US distribution + Stanley Corporate.

Buying an US-made tool (a.k.a SK, SO, Wright, etc.):

US labor + US materials + US factory overhead + US distribution + US store sales + Corporate.

Buying a used US made tool:

US distribution + US store sales + Corporate (store)


It's the Chinese side of where most of the profit/cost which bothers me. Yes, there is some quality stuff comming from China, I won't buy it unless I'm desparate (low on funds and need to fix something). I would rather spend the cash buying Cmans and searching pawnshops. About 95% of my tools are Cmans and 4% pawnshop finds and the last 1% HF stuff (1/2 Impact sockets). Actually, I enjoy scrounging around searching for US tools, its like a treasure hunt to me.

[kornjulio]

Let me give you my viewpoint:

Originally Posted by r0meyrome

I dont get why theres so much hostility towards Chinese made tools

1. The tools are of lesser quality made from lesser quality materials.
2. The Chinese will lie. Ask me for the story about Finkl tool steel.
2. The nation itself is communist.

Originally Posted by r0meyrome

Its the companies you guys should be sickened by if anything

I am and have sent several e-mail to Irwin & Sears letting them know I don't buy China branded tools when another option is available.

Originally Posted by r0meyrome

China buys alot of our products and vice versa.

It's my understanding if you want to sell in China, you must be a minority partner in a joint venture with a China-based company. They heavily protect their domestic industry by doing this and force you to "bring them up to speed" on everything.

Now don't get me wrong: I'm a Republican, not a Democrat. I believe in the American worker but abhore unions. Do I think someone running a press in America should make a career out of it & live in the same house as a doctor? Nope. But I will always choose an American tool over Asian.

[NXGTS]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog500

Id do buy foreign products from countries that buy allot of ours. That is how free trade was supposed to work. They buy our stuff and we buy theirs, Right???? Apparently the Chinese forgot that they should buy stuff from us.

Chris

They do buy a lot of our stuff and more than just raw materials. Ever heard of our national debt? They buy US debt by the billions on a weekly basis.

[quneur]

Originally Posted by Jack90210

Buying USA-made goods for the sake of propping up the home economy is, I believe, a false end. One that resulted in the precipitous demise of the American auto industry. If they had had their wake-up call in the 70s and 80s when they were turning out junk, they would have responded.

In short, buying USA-made goods without considering quality is a refutation of the benefits of the free market, pure and simple.

If American tool companies produced junk and the Chinese produced better quality tools overall, then your similie would be true.

[Zrexxer]

Annnnnnnnnd we're back.

[Jack90210]

..........

[welderwink]

look at what i started.

[quneur]

Jack90210

I'm not bashing you and do like your stance but I believe the auto industry at that time doesn't reflect what we are facing now. Back then, especially in the 80's, US auto makers did produce a lesser quality vehicle then the Japanese and 'Buy American' for a junkie car didn't sell well with US consumers. But with tools, US always produced better tools than the Chinese in which case 'Buy American' slogan has a different meaning - 'Buy Quality'.

[Shadowdog500]

Originally Posted by NXGTS

They do buy a lot of our stuff and more than just raw materials. Ever heard of our national debt? They buy US debt by the billions on a weekly basis.

When the bank loans you money, do you say that they bought your debt? No, the bank charges you interest for the loan, Just like China. Where does China get the money to loan the US? I bet it is our own consumers.

I assume if the government wasn't spending close to a trillion dollars to bail out american companies, as well as having to pay keep extended unemployment going due to lost jobs we would not have to borrow so much money from China. This is in addition to government that never learned to balance its budget. Lets balance the budget and actually use the excess money to pay down debt, instead of other giveaway programs.

Chris

[Bull]

Originally Posted by welderwink

look at what i started.

Naw, it wasn't you.

This general topic is our pool of gasoline and occasionally someone tosses a match. In your case it was unwittingly!

[Skin]

Originally Posted by Mickey O

Post some pics and model info, I'd be interested in purchasing a USA made cordless drill, is it NOS or current line? As I already said the last few Milwaukee tools I purchased were all imports.

Most cordless tools are imported, especially the non-industrial type. B&D/DeWalt [Stanley Works] are certainly no different than Milwaukee in this regard although few of Milwaukees cordless tools are from the EU.

I think Makita is one of the few distributors that import cordless from Japan rather than China and still has a largely USA based production of corded. All the same i'm just making the point that Milwaukee is USA based and does nothing that every other company out there doesnt do.


I want to mention though that "Made In" is actually a very useless term. Anything that is comprised of 100% imported materials but has its final assembly done in the USA can be termed Made in the USA. Many companies use this to their advantage so it is a giant fallacy to think you can go out and trust that stamp. Something as simple as a combination wrench which is stamped Made in the US can be 100% Chinese steel. Even a "Made in USA" drill, could be and most likely would be, a Chinese electric motor at its heart. You just wont know.

[Mickey O]

Originally Posted by Skin

Most cordless tools are imported, especially the non-industrial type. B&D/DeWalt [Stanley Works] are certainly no different than Milwaukee in this regard although few of Milwaukees cordless tools are from the EU.

I think Makita is one of the few distributors that import cordless from Japan rather than China and still has a largely USA base of operations.


I want to mention though that "Made In" is actually a very useless term. Anything that is comprised of 100% imported materials but has its final assembly done in the USA can be termed Made in the USA. Many companies use this to their advantage so it is a giant fallacy to think you can go out and trust that stamp. Even something as simple as a wrench which is stamped Made in the US can be 100% Chinese steel. You just wont know.

I thought you said cordless, know idea why (maybe because I referenced cordless earlier), anyhow I'd still be interested in USA Milwaukee corded tools and all the ones I've seen were imports. I'll have to lake a look at my saw, I bought that a few years ago, I hope it's USA made, I didn't check, didn't think I had to.

[Kent Skinner]

Originally Posted by welderwink

I am somewhat interested in a waterloo box and an excel box. i worked at a place where we had a bottom of the line waterloo and it worked great.

Look, I know you aren't trying to start a fight here. However, there's NO SUCH THING as a $400 American made tool cabinet. Does. Not. Exist.

Your bottom of the line Waterloo box, most likely wasn't made here. They don't advertise "Made in the USA" on their website, so I would be very surprised if they are.

If any tool cabinet you're looking at is much less than a SnapOn, Mac or Matco, it's imported. This one is $1300, and imported.
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...8127_200358127

Go ahead and buy American. If I could afford it, I would - and so would everybody else here. Just realize that you're going to pay. Asking if the stuff at Harbor Freight is imported will only start stupid fights and arguments. It's far too inexpensive to be made here.

[arkangel06]

I think these guys could tell you

[Abbott]

Originally Posted by kornjulio

Let me give you my viewpoint:
1. The tools are of lesser quality made from lesser quality materials.
2. The Chinese will lie. Ask me for the story about Finkl tool steel.
2. The nation itself is communist.

1. They get the job done.

2. Americans will lie.

3. I don't care and yes I'm a Vet. I do think we may go to war with China at some point in the distant future.

4. Harbor Freight helps me get the job done.

5. I looked at the US General box, I like my Kobalt box better but it would not surprise me to find out that they were made in the same factory.

6. I would own all made in the U.S.A. tools but I can not justify the expense of spending 4 times more (or more then that) for a tool that does the same job I can do with Harbor Freight tools.

7. I don't want to spend all my time at yard sales, pawn shops, Craigslist or Ebay looking for used tools. I want to go pick up what I need and go back to work.

[Abbott]

Originally Posted by arkangel06

I think these guys could tell you

Those look like the guys Bruce beat up in the Big Boss

[billymade]

So is there any kind of info on the box anywhere?

[stricht8]

It's funny how so many threads become US vs China on this forum. I think that reflects well on the intentions of many of the members here. We are proud of this country and will do our best to support it. I don't see how there is anything wrong with that. My motivations are the same but I also support well made European tools. Bottom line is I just like good stuff. China has been making a lot of junk for such a long time that it will take them a while to shake off that tarnished image. In addition to the patriotic, economic and poor quality reasons not to buy Chinese there are the human rights violations and environmental reasons. There are just too ma y reasons why we shouldn't buy their stuff. That being said, they do make some really good stuff. You just have to be a discerning buyer. That US General toolbox is one of those good things as are gearwrench and a whole slew of other products. I try my best to avoid Chinese but out of necessity (having no other choice), convenience, personal finances etc I will buy Chinese if I have to.

[IndustrialMechanic]

"I want to mention though that "Made In" is actually a very useless term. Anything that is comprised of 100% imported materials but has its final assembly done in the USA can be termed Made in the USA. Many companies use this to their advantage so it is a giant fallacy to think you can go out and trust that stamp. Something as simple as a combination wrench which is stamped Made in the US can be 100% Chinese steel. Even a "Made in USA" drill, could be and most likely would be, a Chinese electric motor at its heart. You just wont know."

"Even the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) has historically agreed that "all or virtually all" of the components and processes used to make a product must be of U.S. origin to earn the "Made in U.S.A." honor."
Taken from Armstrong tools website

[Kent Skinner]

Originally Posted by Abbott

4. Harbor Freight helps me get the job done.

5. I looked at the US General box, I like my Kobalt box better but it would not surprise me to find out that they were made in the same factory.

6. I would own all made in the U.S.A. tools but I can not justify the expense of spending 4 times more (or more then that) for a tool that does the same job I can do with Harbor Freight tools.

Lookout - somebody's going to throw down a "The Chairman" or "Commie" insult/defense any second now.

[michael murder]

I don't think anyone has actually knowledgeably answered your question. U.S. General is in fact made in China.



I'm continually annoyed at threads being choked to death and made useless by the 'ol you-didn't-exactly-ask-for-it-but-here-is-my-opinion-on-U.S.-made-tool-purchases-that-I-bring-up-constantly,-so-much-so-I'm-an-unproductive-broken-record move. Oh well, I guess it can't be helped.

The U.S. General toolbox is good for the money but if you want to keep it all in house there are great deals to be found on used truck brand toolboxes.

[Shadowdog500]

Originally Posted by Abbott

3. .... I do think we may go to war with China at some point in the distant future.

Out of curiosity, Who do you think will win?

Chris

[Underdog]

OK I'll jump in on this. My rant for the week. Finally got a chance to take a vacation out in Colorado last week in Steam Boat Springs. Been 20 years since my last visit, what changes. Now my story, went to old downtown into the FM Light western clothing store which has been in business sine 1905. Looking to buy myself a new pair of Sorel winter boots to replace my old ones which were always made in Canada. All the ones I saw where now made in China. On to a new Duster, Outback brand formerly from Australia, now made in you guess it, China. Walked out empty handed and depressed.

[arkangel06]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog500

Out of curiosity, Who do you think will win?

Chris

China..........................

[kornjulio]

In the end, all we have are our values and convictions. You live by yours, and I'll live by mine.

[poprockcrusher]

Originally Posted by quneur

Jack90210

I'm not bashing you and do like your stance but I believe the auto industry at that time doesn't reflect what we are facing now. Back then, especially in the 80's, US auto makers did produce a lesser quality vehicle then the Japanese and 'Buy American' for a junkie car didn't sell well with US consumers. But with tools, US always produced better tools than the Chinese in which case 'Buy American' slogan has a different meaning - 'Buy Quality'.

NO ! you were TOLD the Japanese car was better and attracted by the low price ...
lemmings always try to justify their behavior

[poprockcrusher]

Harbor freight serves the HACKS and illegal alien market better than sears ever could

[jvitez]

Gray Tools still makes their boxes in Canada. Bought a small hand box recently. Made in Canada, thick, heavy steel, awesome quality.

http://www.graytools.com/catalogue/2...%20Storage.pdf

[Skin]

Originally Posted by poprockcrusher

NO ! you were TOLD the Japanese car was better and attracted by the low price ...
lemmings always try to justify their behavior

riiight, thats why there are so many 80s-early 90s american cars still on the road. They were so reliable yet oh so disposable!

man i drove american for many years, they were shit compared to the imports plain and simple. dont delude yourself. Go find any self respecting mechanic who worked on cars during that era and say that i promise you they'd laugh in your face. I know many who still dont suggest American to this day. American isnt even American anymore. Some of the highest end best perfomance American cars contain ALOT of foreign parts/engineering.

[Bull]

Maybe this needs to be closed?

[Abbott]

Originally Posted by Shadowdog500

Out of curiosity, Who do you think will win?

Chris

Nobody wins if nukes are used. If it's a navel battle we have a big edge. If it's a Chinese land grab then they are in the dominate position. If we try and fight a politically correct war like we are in the Middle East then we can kiss our Snap-ons goodbye.

[Bull]

Ok, yep, Skin's post just sealed the deal. CLOSED.